The Mongol Empire

[Vinod2070]

Not really, loot fired them up a lot more.

It did. Nothing like making the God happy as well while you engage in more worldly pursuits.

Timur did get the sanction of some Muslim religious folks before attacking Delhi which was already under Muslim rule. His excuse: that guy treated Hindu kaffirs too softly as against the Islamic requirements of hard treatment of dhimmis.

Well you guys lucked out after all; his decedents set up shop there.

Yes. Though at least Babur and company had become civilized to an extent compared to his city hating ancestors. For Genghis, a city was just meant to be destroyed.

[Vinod2070]

How large a presence do the descendants of Mongol have in Central Asia? Like the Hazara of Afghanistan, for instance. There would have been a lot of admixture with the natives over the centuries? In India the descendants of the Mongol are now virtually indistinguishable from the natives, if I am right?

It is difficult to find anyone in India claiming Mughal descent (I mean Mughal rulers). The British did a thorough job of cleaning them up after 1857 it seems.

I think the Mongols came to India in few numbers and mostly married locals.

[HillTribe]

It is difficult to find anyone in India claiming Mughal descent (I mean Mughal rulers). The British did a thorough job of cleaning them up after 1857 it seems.

I think the Mongols came to India in few numbers and mostly married locals.

I saw an old picture of Bahadur Shah Zaffar and some paintings of Akbar, Babur and co. They looked nothing like Mongolians. Could it be that Tamerlame cooked up his lineage to go all the way to Temujin just to gain a greater credibility among his men? Timurids probably were more Central Asian Tartar than Mongol after centuries of assimilation into the local populace.

[Vinod2070]

I am not too familiar with Timur's ancestry. I think he faked that part.

The Mongols were always too few in number. Every one of their males was a fighter and they were still almost always outnumbered. They couldn't afford to settle in large numbers anywhere. After assimilation in any large population, there would be little trace of Mongols.

[troung]

How large a presence do the descendants of Mongol have in Central Asia? Like the Hazara of Afghanistan, for instance. There would have been a lot of admixture with the natives over the centuries? In India the descendants of the Mongol are now virtually indistinguishable from the natives, if I am right?

Kazakhs, Aimaks, Hazaras, Uzbeks, Karakaplaks...

I saw an old picture of Bahadur Shah Zaffar and some paintings of Akbar, Babur and co. They looked nothing like Mongolians. Could it be that Tamerlame cooked up his lineage to go all the way to Temujin just to gain a greater credibility among his men? Timurids probably were more Central Asian Tartar than Mongol after centuries of assimilation into the local populace.

Timur's heirs really played the linking him with GK, Timur really played the traditional Chagatayid game of using puppet Khans and never moved for the big title. He might have tried to play arond with lineage, claiming a common ancestor but relied on the use of puppet Khans. His guys all knew the game. One of his puppet Khans actually commanded a wing of the army during the Battle of Ankara.

Timurids probably were more Central Asian Tartar than Mongol after centuries of assimilation into the local populace. + The Mongols were always too few in number. Every one of their males was a fighter and they were still almost always outnumbered. They couldn't afford to settle in large numbers anywhere. After assimilation in any large population, there would be little trace of Mongols.

They (Golden Horde, Ilkhanate, Chagatayids) were assimilated into their mainly Turkic armies. In time it was Turkic peoples who formed the bulk of the Mongol armies. They no longer spoke Mongol and had become Muslim, but were ruled in reality or on paper (depending on which state at which time) by people descendant from Genghis Khan (excluding the later Timurids who were crushed by people ruled by descendants of GK. They still considered themselves a part of the Mongol Empire, despite the language change.

By the time the Mughals reached India they were Turkic speaking Muslims already.

Mongols/Tatars in Russia....

[HillTribe]

Awesome pictures!!

Its baffling to think how a single person (GK), his descendants, the people who claim to be his descendants and even just his legacy have changed the history of large swathes of the Eurasian landmass, places as varied and distant as Mongolia, China, Korea, Persia, to Russia, Eastern Europe, India...

We would be living in a different world if it were not for Chingiz. For starters, the European renaissance would have taken late if at all...

[troung]

Unlike Alexander his kids kept expanding the empire for years after his death.

Golden Horde and successors

[troung]

more.

[Ararat]

Nice thread and very impressive art display, thanks.

Mongols were cool. As I remember Mongol Empire and Armenia got along really good economically (Trade) and fighting against common enemies. Too bad they lost to the Egyptians. Afterwards the Armenian kingdom of Cilicia came under many attacks because of this alliance.

[Officer of Engineers]

Too bad they lost to the Egyptians.

The Marmaulukes were Turks.

[Ararat]

The Marmaulukes were Turks.

You are right. Weren’t they also mostly consisting of Egyptian recruits and Islamized Turkified Christian stolen babies? I guess that would make them Turks as well. They had a high status as slaves, a blessing from Allah as Muslims saw it since they stop the crusades and the Mongols.

[Officer of Engineers]

Didn't matter what the make up the army was. What mattered was that they were the Mongols' equal in feriocity, tactics, and weapons.

[troung]

You are right. Weren’t they also mostly consisting of Egyptian recruits and Islamized Turkified Christian stolen babies? I guess that would make them Turks as well. They had a high status as slaves, a blessing from Allah as Muslims saw it since they stop the crusades and the Mongols.

WTF. They were Kipchak Turks at the time of the war with the Ilkhanate, the same group which also made up a surprisingly large part of the Mongol Armies. I get you have certain feeling about certain ethnic groups but if you know nothing about a subject avoid responding.

Armenians were treated as throwaway troops and the Ilkhanate used them as a buffer state. The Mamluks did not conquer the Ilkhanate, the state fell for internal reasons after the death of Abu Said and was replaced by two Turko-Mongol states (Chupanaids and Jalayers) and a few local Persian dynasties.

Galdan Khan...

[Ararat]

WTF. They were Kipchak Turks at the time of the war with the Ilkhanate, the same group which also made up a surprisingly large part of the Mongol Armies. I get you have certain feeling about certain ethnic groups but if you know nothing about a subject avoid responding.

are you saying this is wrong information on Mamluks? I usually don't trust Wiki but it seems to be correct.

Mamluk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Armenians were treated as throwaway troops...

Now that wasn't necessery.

[troung]

Now that wasn't necessery.

It was true. They got used as a buffer state and the Ilkhanate rarely rode to the rescue during Mamluk raids. Their performance against the Mamluks was not impressive either. No real alliance like we would consider it today.

are you saying this is wrong information on Mamluks? I usually don't trust Wiki but it seems to be correct.

...

The first Mamluk dynasty was named Bahri after the name of one of the regiments, the Bahriya or River Island regiment. The name Bahri (بحري meaning "of the sea or river") referred to their center in al-Rodah Island in the Nile. The regiment consisted mainly of Kipchak Turks.