A cool Missouri photo

[Gun Grape]

I did the deed. Bought the tamiya 1/350 USS Missouri.

Got it for 40% off.

Anyway, looking on the web for photos before I start building and ran across this one.

Do the other ships still have their welded small WW2 numbers on the bow?

Look closely its in the top of the painted number 6

Sorry for the big pic

[RustyBattleship]

Yes, many do but not all. I think BB's 63 & 64 in Iraq used them with a bit of haze gray overspray to lessen the starkness of the white. But I really didn't pay too much attention as we were being given our marching (or rather, "retreat") orders to start deactivating them.

[Dreadnought]

*Grape, all US battleships wore very small hull numbers in white post Pearl Harbor repairs, this was done to reduce being spotted while in port or at sea by recon. Most of the older WWII battleships (Nevada, Pennsylvania, Texas etc) also lost the names on the quater stern sections so they couldn't be identified so easily by the Japanese or Germans. The Iowas all through out WWII had the small numbers as well on the hulls and in some cases no visible numbers at all or stern markings, they were there just painted grey over the welded outlines. The Iowas as we see them today recieved their much larger (8'-0") white hull numbers during reactivation for the Korean War and even some time later during Korean deployment.

*That is not to say Rusty is incorrect and this could have once again taken place (small numbers returned for deployment), but the when both ships deployed they were wearing the large (8'-0") numbers and when they returned wearing the very same.

Except in one photo with both ships together and Sacramanto (AOE-1) between them Missouri's 8'-0 letters were black instead of white.

The size of the numbers in your reference are very close to if not WWII welded outlines for the hull numbers.

[Gun Grape]

I know they wore small numbers, like all ships in WW2. I also knew that the name was welded to the stern. I didn't know the bow numbers were.

I just thought that was neat. And was wondering if the other Iowas still have them.

So Dred, does the Jersey still have her welded on bow numbers?

After all these years, especially after going to the current modified Measure 13 paint scheme, it surprises me that the welded bow numbers had not been ground off.

[Dreadnought]

I know they wore small numbers, like all ships in WW2. I also knew that the name was welded to the stern. I didn't know the bow numbers were.

I just thought that was neat. And was wondering if the other Iowas still have them.

So Dred, does the Jersey still have her welded on bow numbers?

After all these years, especially after going to the current modified Measure 13 paint scheme, it surprises me that the welded bow numbers had not been ground off.

*To be truthfull Grape, I would have to take a look, I have never noticed it before. They may already be gone since New Jersey did get another paint job prior to becoming a museum. IMO, It wouldnt be unusual for Mo to be the only one left with those numbers since she was still in service a few years after all the rest were retired shortly after WWII and then refitted for Korea service. I will take a look and let you know.

[DreadnaughtHelper]

None of the Battleships had the hull numbers painted on prior to late 1941 or even Pearl Harbor, this was a practice that was started about the time of the Pearl Harbor attack.

Only the Destroyers and smaller vessels had the large shaded hull numbers on them prior to 1941. They were losing these prior to the Pearl Harbor attack though.

[Dreadnought]

None of the Battleships had the hull numbers painted on prior to late 1941 or even Pearl Harbor, this was a practice that was started about the time of the Pearl Harbor attack.

*I was under the impression that was what I stated above, none wore their hull numbers until afterwards, Pearl happened December 7, 1941 (I'am sure you know this) the battleships (didnt arrive back in US yards until march 1942 and later) they didn't begin wearing the small hull numbers until post Pearl Harbor US shipyard repairs and refits. Theres plenty of pictures of them undergoing major repair and major refit in U.S. yards after just coming home from temp Pearl Harbor refits and not even wearing their stern quarter identities (state names) painted in black like normal just grey paint over it in some cases. They wore almost no markings at all in some cases. After their repairs (refits for those not at Pearl or just being launched and not including those transfered from the Atlantic) in many cases was where they changed from haze grey to their camo colors or war time colors whichever combination they wore. You could tell what class by sillowette but not ship hence the small hull numbers for visual id.

Pennsylvania BB-38 (first pic), after arriving in Mare Island march 1942 before her major repair and refit (one of the least damaged), no stern markings at all no hull numbers visable, Second pic post Mare Island US yard refit with small number hull markings and wartime colors.

Pic 1 before Mare Island refit.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013865.jpg

Pic 2 post Mare Island refit, upgrades, small hull numbers in white and war time colors.
http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013874a.jpg

Pic 3 stern quarter markings post refit.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013870.jpg

[DreadnaughtHelper]

Dred:
That does seem to be pretty much what you said alright.

The welded outline of the wartime size 63 on the Missouri bow is something that I have to say I probably never noticed it or I forgot it.

It is possible that this was put on there in 1948 to 51, and that could explain if the other ships do not have them.

I just looked through my photos of the Iowa from August 16 2006 and Oct 12 06 and I cannot see the weld marks for the wartime numbers, but my photos may not be clear enough, of this area, I have great closeups of the sponson for the bow gun tub and the anchor bolster but I guess I was not interested enough to do a close up of the forward hull number. I do have great closeups of the after one. Hmmm

[RustyBattleship]

Dred:
That does seem to be pretty much what you said alright.

The welded outline of the wartime size 63 on the Missouri bow is something that I have to say I probably never noticed it or I forgot it.

It is possible that this was put on there in 1948 to 51, and that could explain if the other ships do not have them.

I just looked through my photos of the Iowa from August 16 2006 and Oct 12 06 and I cannot see the weld marks for the wartime numbers, but my photos may not be clear enough, of this area, I have great closeups of the sponson for the bow gun tub and the anchor bolster but I guess I was not interested enough to do a close up of the forward hull number. I do have great closeups of the after one. Hmmm

I also did a full review of all the close-ups you did in August '06 before we boarded the ship. There are NO weld outlines on either side of the bow.

[tbm3fan]

Interesting. Now all this is going to make me take a very close look at the Iowa the next time we pass by the bow. I've seen welded names on the stern of ships up at Suisun, because they were obvious, but the Iowa would need a closer look.

[DreadnaughtHelper]

The Iowa's name is 3/8" plates welded to the stern. These are not the original plates though as they put the openings for the NIXIE cables right where the name was. So this moved it down a bit. Originally they were 1/4". I am not sure why they decided to specify thicker plate for replacement in the 80's. I remember looking at this when we did the New Jersey in 82. The drawings called for just relocating the original plates but the welders said that it is more work then it was worth so they cut new letters on the brand new plasma cutter. I think the guys operating the cutter just wanted to do something interesting.

[RustyBattleship]

The Iowa's name is 3/8" plates welded to the stern. These are not the original plates though as they put the openings for the NIXIE cables right where the name was. So this moved it down a bit. Originally they were 1/4". I am not sure why they decided to specify thicker plate for replacement in the 80's. I remember looking at this when we did the New Jersey in 82. The drawings called for just relocating the original plates but the welders said that it is more work then it was worth so they cut new letters on the brand new plasma cutter. I think the guys operating the cutter just wanted to do something interesting.

The quarter-inch thick plates would have been too badly damaged if removed by a Number 5 scarfing tip. The plates were welded on by ordinary welders probably using ordinary 5/32 "Mild" steel rod which would wind up as a quarter inch bead (same thickness as the plate).

Also, the number plates are cut out of a flat sheet of steel and probably not too much time was wasted beating a curve into them to fit on the rounded stern. Remember tha Admiral's quarters we turned into CEC on New Jersey? The centerline bulkhead went from 01 to 03 level and the 02 level plating was not lined up well. We had a heck of a time welding that armor plate down to that deck without having a tripping hazard.

But then, in the days the ships were built, construction was speeded up for a very specific anchorage -- in Tokyo Harbor.

[Gun Grape]

None of the Battleships had the hull numbers painted on prior to late 1941 or even Pearl Harbor, this was a practice that was started about the time of the Pearl Harbor attack.

Sort of. I have seen many pictures of Lant BBs with small hull numbers from mid 41 . Especially those wearing Measures 11, 12 and 12 mod camo and involved in Neutrality patrols.

Pac BBs were all decked out in Measure 1 (Dark Grey Scheme) Ship number painted on the top of #2 turrets but haven't seen any reference that included hull numbers.

.

Pic 1 before Mare Island refit.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013865.jpg

Pic 2 post Mare Island refit, upgrades, small hull numbers in white and war time colors.
http://navsource.org/archives/01/038/013874a.jpg

Pic 3 stern quarter markings post refit.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013870.jpg

Dread,

Good pics but I would caution you when using "Public Release" photos for determining such things as painted hull numbers.

Wartime censors made such things as radars and hull numbers disappear. Don't give the enemy info for free.

A good example of this is in your first photo. Find the CXAM radar on the Pennsylvania. She had it installed prior to Pearl Harbor but it isn't in the pic.

[Gun Grape]

OK now another question. In their 1980s configuration, the aft of the ships had different amounts of wood deck/nonskid.

Iowas nonskid only goes back to the Helo Control.

Jersey and Wisky goes back to the superstructure.

Gut the Jersey has wood decking around #3 turret with a path to the helo booth.

Why are they different?

[DreadnaughtHelper]

The Non-skid was painted right over the teak decking. The differance in the pattern was made by the ships command. You will also note that the pattern would change after an overhaul. The Non-skid would wear rather quickly