Dutch Government Collapses over Afghanistan Row

[ArtyEngineer]

This is not good. See link below from BBC:

BBC News - Dutch cabinet collapses in dispute over Afghanistan

The Dutch have been providing some very usefull assets over the last few years.

Regards

Arty

[tankie]

Its a shame the schoolboy infighting is detracting from the real fighting

[Bigfella]

This is not good. See link below from BBC:

BBC News - Dutch cabinet collapses in dispute over Afghanistan

The Dutch have been providing some very usefull assets over the last few years.

Regards

Arty

Well, look at it this way, they stayed for 2 years longer than planned.

If there is support for the deployment than the government can take it to an election or form another coalition. If not then it is probably time to come home. Deploying troops into combat against the wishes of the population is a risky thing to do politically & I don't think it is great for the troops either. Without solid support at home the troops risk getting caught up in ill feeling toward the politicians who sent them.

It won't be long before this conflict hits the 10 year mark. The Dutch aren't the only ones wondering how long will be long enough.

[S2]

Wrong Fight At The Right Time

This war won't deliver what we want but can deliver what we need and now isn't the time to bail. Things are changing in more than a few ways. If the government in a box that McChrystal intends to deliver at least have their local act together this is the roadmap we've needed.

What's missing? The U.N. for starters. Nobody was helped by the Deputy Commissioner, Robert Watkins, getting on a soapbox to pontificate how military delivery of aid is WRONG and neither the U.N. nor the NGOs will support the Marjah operation. It's not a question of tainting but delivery of services. Watkin's contention that such endangers the U.N. and NGOs is a big DUHHHH. Of course it does. The area is UNSTABLE in Marjah.

So the U.N. won't and the military will in addition to fighting the fight because civilians can't starve while landmines are cleared and snipers suppressed.

They're so totally western EURO and ball-less.

What else is missing? The Karzai government, of course. Karzai's attempt to slip new electoral laws through their government is designed to limit female participation in electoral candidacies, remove western participation from their electoral commission (that overwatch is clearly still NEEDED) and also limit those not wealthy from running ($100,000 deposit to run for election and refunded only if 20% or more of the vote secured). Where's the U.N.'s voice on that one?

The Dutch need to stay in Afghanistan if not in the fight. So too, frankly, the Canadians. Both participation has been the weakest domestically and always in trouble (along with the Germans). If Canadian vehicles are tired, so too everybody else but they need to beg, borrow, or steal from Ameriica to keep their troops downrange.

Everybody whines about U.S. domination. Well, by default when the rest skate out. No nat'l population has been bled white. None. Nobody's going broke because of Afghanistan.

Pile three more jets into downtown Amsterdam, though, and rebuild that and they'll know real costs.

I'm a little ticked and had too much coffee.

Thanks.

[Officer of Engineers]

Canadians will stay ... just not in a combat role.

[Mihais]

The downside of democracy in action.John Doe the shopkeeper as a strategist and policymaker.Nothing to see here,so I wave my hand in disgust and wait for the ''I told you so'' moments.

[ArtyEngineer]

Mihais

The downside of democracy in action.John Doe the shopkeeper as a strategist and policymaker.Nothing to see here,so I wave my hand in disgust and wait for the ''I told you so'' moments.

How is the deployment if Romanian Troops view by the general population in Romania? With almost 1000 troops deployed Romania is a significant contributor.

Regards

Arty

[Mihais]

Arty engineer reply

The bulk of the population views this as something that has to be done as part of NATO.That means that when NATO gets out,we get out.The opinions vary on a large spectrum from ''our boys are cannon fodder for the Americans that went there for cheap oil'' to those that actually understand what's at stake(a tiny minority,even in the military).Those from the civilian population that's slightly more informed considers the participation a useful experience for the Army,so even from this p.o.v they support the expedition(an opinion almost unanimous among the uniformed).

There is however an issue.The war is not on the media's radar(actually,on nobody's radar,except the military) unless somebody dies.Then there is a brief explosion of outrage among the ''experts'' and opposition politicians about the Gov. lack of interest for the armed forces.That lasts(according to my verified calculations) 36 hours.Then it's forgotten.The downside is that if you want to learn something about our troops there,you have better chances of finding something anywhere in the world but in Romania.Personally I rely on informal talks with elder buddies that were there.

[S2]

Mihais Reply

When do you graduate and get commissioned?

[Aussiegunner]

Bigfella

Well, look at it this way, they stayed for 2 years longer than planned.

If there is support for the deployment than the government can take it to an election or form another coalition. If not then it is probably time to come home. Deploying troops into combat against the wishes of the population is a risky thing to do politically & I don't think it is great for the troops either. Without solid support at home the troops risk getting caught up in ill feeling toward the politicians who sent them.

It won't be long before this conflict hits the 10 year mark. The Dutch aren't the only ones wondering how long will be long enough.

Long enough will be as long as it takes for Afghanistan not to be a country that could turn back into a terrorist training base once the Western allies leave, however long that takes. The fight against terrorism is like the fight against crime, we don't pull the police out of the community just because we get sick of funding them and because some of them get killed in the line of duty.

The Dutch and US allies (including Australia, we aren't making the contribution that we could) should remember that their civilians have died from terrorist attacks and that it is the duty of their Governments to contribute militarily to prevent that again. Pulling out and then expecting the US to carry the responsiblity for everybody else is entirely unacceptable.

[pChan]

One can speculate that this is probably the best time for AQ to attack Netherlands and claim it did so for aiding the Afghanistan "invasion". I am curious, will such a terror attack strengthen Dutch resolve to fight or will we see Netherlands go down the same route as Spain?

[Mihais]

When do you graduate and get commissioned?

2012.Been delayed by an accident suffered in the summer vacation after the first year.

[S2]

Romania

Your boys suffered five casualties the other day. My condolences and prayers for their recovery. IED strike. Not good.

This war will still be going on and I can't say in all honesty that I'd like you there but you're a soldier and should you deploy you'll be in my prayers too lad.

[S2]

The Danes

Danes are viewing this war through a different prism than much of the rest of Europe. Not overwhelming but favorable nonetheless. 5% of their total active and reserve forces are deployed amidst very little global coverage. Yet Danes have suffered more casualties as a percentage of deployed forces than anybody save Canada and Estonia-

Denmark Rallies Public Behind Afghan War - WSJ Feb. 24, 2010

[S2]

NYT Sounds Off

I recall the debates in the spring of 2006 in the Dutch, British, and Canadian parliaments about sending troops to ISAF.

The war was pitifully undersold to minimize the threat. Who can forget John Reid's famously alleged comments about British troops being able to secure Helmand without a shot being fired? In short, the publics of all three nations were misled to some extent. That, of course, doesn't absolve the citizenry of all three in willful complicity by burying their heads and playing along.

NYT says that a debate is important in Europe to understand that their participation isn't as poodles to our effort but on behalf of themselves. Too true. One only needs to view Pakistan's own misunderstandings about their own existential threat until confronted with the gravity of losing Swat and Buner last year to understand how the common anti-Americanism so prevalent elsewhere can lead to shortsightedness and the brutal results.

The Dutch Retreat From Afghanistan-NYT Feb. 25, 2010