Originally posted by Kansas Bear
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Chamberlain a new look.
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by zraver View PostEurope 1914-1939 3300 level class (Undergrad- Junior)
Z, this is your statement
Originally posted by zraver View PostInstead I argue that Britain lacked the means, the will and the allies to do more than accept the German fait accompli.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostAHA! there in lies my discomfort!
Z, this is your statement
What you have presented was your reading of the facts but you have not presented Chamberlain's reading of the facts. In order for Chamberlain to accept a fait accompli, you have to show that he saw a fait accompli. Nowhere in your paper did you present that.
that Chamberlain's actions at Munich were, "an emergency plan, intended to buy peace at the expense of the disintegration of Czechoslovakia..." Moreover, "Munich was a policy , dictated by fear and weakness, which Neville Chamberlain devised as means, not of postponing war but, as he personally believed, of making Anglo-German war unnecessary in the future."
By attacking the emergency nature of it, to show that his actions were due more to the physical realities of the situation I by-passed what he personally believed since that is an unknowable anyway.
Instead I focus on his lack of meaningful allies, domestic political support, financial constraints and weak military position. Granted I only had a max of 5 pages to make my argument and only 1 real source to use so its just the sketch of a more developed argument. But I think given the constraints I was working with that Chamberlain's actions were driven more by physical facts than wishful thinking.
I do think the full argument is there to be made. Wouldn't be a hard book or masters thesis to write, since for once I could read the most of primary sources without translation lol.
Chp1 introduction
Chp 2 allied military policy 19-38
Chp 3 Hilter's rise to power
Chp 4 Britain green lights Hitlers rearmament
Chp 5 France's failures with its allies
Chp 6 The anchluss and how it affected the czech defensive posture
Chp 7 Hitler, Henlien and Benes
Chp 8 The May Crisis
Chp 9 British Hesitation
Chp 10 France's lack of will
Chp 11 the economic reality
Chp 12 public sentiment in the UK
Chp 13 UK's military reality
Chp 14 other nations' response
Chp 15 conclusionLast edited by zraver; 25 Nov 09,, 07:17.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostGentlemen,
There are a lot of flaws with Z's position, I have serious doubts that the Wehrmacht could overrun the Sudetenland before the British could mount a military response. When Germany needs to commit 88 divisions out of 100, a fight and a half is going to ensue, especially given the fact that the Sudetenland lacks the maneuver room necessary for blitzkreig.
But that's not the point, the point is is Z's paper solid enough with limited resources stand up to challenge.
I personally am uncomfortable with it but I see how Z is formulating his arguements. I, for one, thinks the paper needs to be tighter. It goes against conventional thinking, ie the Sudetenland would have been the phyric death knell for Germany. Z, you would have to argue why this conventional thinking is wrong ... or why no one thought it.
-http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/File:Military_Strength_1938.PNG
-http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/%C4%8CSR_Army_Order_of_Battle_-_September_30,_1938_(Fall_Gr%C3%BCn)
-http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/German_army_Order_of_Battle_-_October_1,_1938_(Fall_Gr%C3%BCn)
-http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Hungarian_Order_of_Battle_-_October_1,_1938_(Fall_Gr%C3%BCn)
The Germans do vastly outnumber Czech armor,but Pz1-2 vs Czech 35-38 models...
The only clear advantage is in the air.
Overall,I agree that they could not easily beat the Czechs.Those who know don't speak
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36
Comment
-
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View PostBut that is in complete opposition to his stated and declared public view, "Peace in our time." Z would have to show that this was a lie and that Chamberlain knew he was lying.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by zraver View PostIt failed via a general strike and the army stayed out of it for the most part, correct? had the army jumped in, who ever they backed would have won.
Further even with full support of the military the Putsch might still have failed (in my opinion) due the lack of support outside the military in the general population which was at least this time rallying behind the young democrazy. Sadly it quickly lost this support in the following decade...
This is getting a bit sidetracked, my point was to show that an military coup can even happen in Germany (despite it being a failure)
Comment
-
Originally posted by zraver View PostNot directly no, the use of primary sources in the source I was given is thin to say the least.
Comment
-
Question to All
Z,
Sorry to jack your thread, but I need to ask:
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post1979, you're using hindsight. What Z has done was to try to see what Chamberlain saw, not what actually happenned afterwards. In hindsight, London should have gone to war over the Sudetenland. Hitler would still have won but he would have been bled white and in no position to start WWII. Instead of inheriting the Czech guns, tanks, and horses he needed to start WWII, they would have been burning his German guns, tanks, and horses.All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
-Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Triple C View PostZ,
Sorry to jack your thread, but I need to ask:
What would a British intervention in 38 look like? Assuming UK goes to war, how would hit the Germans and with what?
No wonder that the german generals were reluctant to say the least...J'ai en marre.
Comment
-
Originally posted by zraver View PostFrance was not going to invade Germany.
Originally posted by zraver View PostFrance had no intention of actually fighting
France may very well stab them in the back.
In the end it was Czech decision to make (to fight or not) , Chamberlain chose to disregard that.J'ai en marre.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Postn, I have serious doubts that the Wehrmacht could overrun the Sudetenland before the British could mount a military response.
Any claims that the British could have made a military response of any value against Germany in the period of the Munich agreement are complete nonsense.
ps; It should also be noted that Britain had no treaties of alliance of any type with Czechoslovakia, so helping negotiate the transfer of the region of Sudetenland from Czech to German control, which was in line with the wishes of the vast majority of the people who lived there, was in no way an act of betrayal.
* Even by May 1940 the number of British divisions in France was only 10 of which only about 8 were considered fit for battle. :(Last edited by redco; 25 Nov 09,, 14:32.
Comment
Comment