The Armed Citizen...

[dalem]

There's the rub. What restrictions would you impose, aside from the obvious, like no target shooting on Main Street?

Aye, that's the rub.

I have no idea. If it were in my power I'd probably start with the old Dodge City idea and view gun+alcohol as an automatic night in the calaboose and see if that made any difference. Other than that I don't know what else would be useful. If violence against person and property is already illegal, does it matter if it's performed with a shovel or a Ma Duece?

-dale

[highsea]

...If it were in my power I'd probably start with the old Dodge City idea and view gun+alcohol as an automatic night in the calaboose and see if that made any difference.

Already that way in Washington State, at least as it pertains to bars. Drinking at home and playing with guns is a self-correcting problem.

I can't think of any reason why urban laws should be any different than rural ones. Why should someone be punished/rewarded based on the size of the town they live in?

7thfs- your story reminded me of a similar one. I knew a guy who used a .357 to make some holes in the bottom of a boat for an emergency patch. It worked and he got back to town, and he didn't even kill his wife.

__________________________________________________ _____________

I read comments about how guns are designed for killing people, and I get annoyed. There are many uses for guns that don't involve killing people. I have been shooting my whole life yet I've never killed anyone. Am I misusing my guns?

[gunnut]

gunnut,

well, right in your post you already show some fear of cars- you're wary walking in front of stopped or parked cars, as you should be. hell, driving to LA and some parts of dc make me plenty worried (goddam sudden stops in georgetown traffic!).

and this is for a tool that's not meant to kill people, and generally has more clear expressions of intent (you can usually see and avoid the lousy driver or the man in the middle of road rage).

that's a bit different with guns. there are less indicators that the person with the gun is a threat, or will become one. it's much harder to tell from just physical aspects alone- to evaluate whether a person is a threat or not you'd need to know more about the person's character, mood, training, etc etc etc.

You misunderstood my point. I don't fear cars. I fear the driver.

I don't fear guns. I fear people.

When do I fear other drivers? When I'm not in my own car.

When do I fear other people? When I'm not armed.

Things don't hurt me. People do. People don't even need guns to hurt me.

I am physically a small guy. I don't work out. I don't know any martial arts. I am at complete mercy of the police's protection. Should something happen, I just hope to live and seek revenge. Or die and haunt my attacker.

[tankie]

You misunderstood my point. I don't fear cars. I fear the driver.

I don't fear guns. I fear people.

When do I fear other drivers? When I'm not in my own car.

When do I fear other people? When I'm not armed.

Things don't hurt me. People do. People don't even need guns to hurt me.

I am physically a small guy. I don't work out. I don't know any martial arts. I am at complete mercy of the police's protection. Should something happen, I just hope to live and seek revenge. Or die and haunt my attacker.

Hey shorty , (no offence meant my friend ) but ,dont come and live in the UK only scum bags and criminals get away with crime and the police DONT protect ,the saying an eye for an eye is apt ,, fuk the police . ask the family from menendez ;)

[astralis]

gunnut,

When do I fear other people? When I'm not armed.

Things don't hurt me. People do. People don't even need guns to hurt me.

I am physically a small guy. I don't work out. I don't know any martial arts. I am at complete mercy of the police's protection. Should something happen, I just hope to live and seek revenge. Or die and haunt my attacker.

whom would you fear more, a 100 lb stranger with a swiss knife or a 100 lb stranger with a M4?

obviously if you know someone or have a clue to his intentions, a gun is just another tool. your buddy hoisting the .22 at the rifle range or the cop with his glock.

but if you DON'T know a person, a gun is more than a tool- it is something that just made it a hell of lot easier for that person to do you grievous harm or death.

if you note the original open carry article,

The Jensens' daughter, Sierra, and newborn son, Tyler, began to get restless, so the couple bundled up the children and pulled the manager of the restaurant aside to thank her for hosting them.

A patron appeared at Jensen's side and began to berate him. "What you guys are doing here is completely unacceptable," he said. "There are children here."

Jensen said that everyone in the restaurant had a legal right to carry. The man didn't back down and the Jensens left.

Days later, Jensen was still thinking about the reaction and the man's belief that guns are unsafe

i wonder if that patron would have done the same if jensen was a cop in uniform, which would have given that patron more information as to why jensen was carrying a gun.

[gunnut]

gunnut,

whom would you fear more, a 100 lb stranger with a swiss knife or a 100 lb stranger with a M4?

Depends on if I have a sidearm with me.

Here's a question for you, who do I fear more? A 200 lb man or a 100 lb man?

Why is it that I need to put in so much more work physically to be able to better protect myself vs. some others who are just naturally bigger and stronger?

I'm sure you've heard of this saying: god made men; Sam Colt made them equal.

obviously if you know someone or have a clue to his intentions, a gun is just another tool. your buddy hoisting the .22 at the rifle range or the cop with his glock.

but if you DON'T know a person, a gun is more than a tool- it is something that just made it a hell of lot easier for that person to do you grievous harm or death.

if you note the original open carry article,

i wonder if that patron would have done the same if jensen was a cop in uniform, which would have given that patron more information as to why jensen was carrying a gun.

That's because we're taught that police carry guns.

What if we're taught that citizens can and should carry guns?

We all drive, don't we? I'm sure our car culture is very shocking and different for those people who grew up only seeing the police and the military have cars.

[Blue]

[QUOTE]

whom would you fear more, a 100 lb stranger with a swiss knife or a 100 lb stranger with a M4?

Only if the guy with the M4 has bullets, can see and hear and is wearing a shirt that says "I hate people from Missouri".

obviously if you know someone or have a clue to his intentions, a gun is just another tool. your buddy hoisting the .22 at the rifle range or the cop with his glock.

but if you DON'T know a person, a gun is more than a tool- it is something that just made it a hell of lot easier for that person to do you grievous harm or death.

I can see your point here and I think that Americans are going to have to get used to seeing these types of things because some of us are fed up with criminals having open season and we are volunteering our time and money as citizens to stand up say no more!

A Missouri CC permit cost me $100 for the training class to certify me, regardless of the fact I am an ex-soldier and cop. I still had to go as a private citizen to learn about exactly when it is legal to use my weapon. Another $100 for the background check, and another $30 at the DMV for my ID card. And the whole process took almost two months. I carry a $1000 Kimber 1911 in a $80 shoulder holster. Now double that because my wife did and has the same. I did not spend all that time and money to lose my temper or get drunk and shoot some dipsquat running his mouth at me or cutting me off in traffic. But my life, my wifes, and hopefully everyone elses life is worth at least far more than that. Isn't it. I wish people would realize that folks like us are NOT crazy. We simply give a shit about ours and others safety and rights as a human to be free from the threat of thugs and tyranny.

if you note the original open carry article,

i wonder if that patron would have done the same if jensen was a cop in uniform, which would have given that patron more information as to why jensen was carrying a gun.

I wonder if anyone has ever explained it to Mr. Opinion there, like I just did, why we do it. He may have changed his tune. Whaddya think?

[Blue]

I am at complete mercy of the police's protection.

And since they are not in the protection business, your screwed!

[dalem]

Already that way in Washington State, at least as it pertains to bars. Drinking at home and playing with guns is a self-correcting problem.

I can't think of any reason why urban laws should be any different than rural ones. Why should someone be punished/rewarded based on the size of the town they live in?

I agree my thesis is unsustainable on its face, but I'm just being honest about how I feel about it.

-dale

[gunnut]

And since they are not in the protection business, your screwed!

That's right. You know that. I know that. But most people, especially liberals, believe that the police is here to protect us. No. They are not here to protect us. They are here to enforce the law. Only I can protect me.

[dalem]

That's right. You know that. I know that. But most people, especially liberals, believe that the police is here to protect us. No. They are not here to protect us. They are here to enforce the law. Only I can protect me.

When I explain that and reference the Supreme Court case that proved it to my anti-gun lefty friends they just go blank. Facts are like Kryptonite to them.

-dale

[toemag]

Situation awareness, not paranoia are your friends. Being armed just evens the playing field once you have realised that something is wrong.

Tony

Guess size don't matter, huh.

[astralis]

gunnut,

Depends on if I have a sidearm with me.

Here's a question for you, who do I fear more? A 200 lb man or a 100 lb man?

Why is it that I need to put in so much more work physically to be able to better protect myself vs. some others who are just naturally bigger and stronger?

I'm sure you've heard of this saying: god made men; Sam Colt made them equal.

sure, i'm not arguing against the right to defend yourself. what i'm saying is that you should neither be surprised or think that it's irrational when people act more nervous or feel more threatened by someone openly carrying a firearm.

What if we're taught that citizens can and should carry guns?

We all drive, don't we? I'm sure our car culture is very shocking and different for those people who grew up only seeing the police and the military have cars.

we have several historical examples of this, actually. on the negative end is the wild west, where citizens took the law into their own hands. not exactly the most forgiving and tolerant of cultures- people were tempted to stretch the idea of self-defense, to put it lightly.

the other end is switzerland, where everyone is required to own a gun yet rule of law is firmly in place. unfortunately, i think that's a lot harder to re-create here in the US, because of size difference, community structure, and cultural homogeniety issues.

[gunnut]

gunnut,



sure, i'm not arguing against the right to defend yourself. what i'm saying is that you should neither be surprised or think that it's irrational when people act more nervous or feel more threatened by someone openly carrying a firearm.



we have several historical examples of this, actually. on the negative end is the wild west, where citizens took the law into their own hands. not exactly the most forgiving and tolerant of cultures- people were tempted to stretch the idea of self-defense, to put it lightly.

the other end is switzerland, where everyone is required to own a gun yet rule of law is firmly in place. unfortunately, i think that's a lot harder to re-create here in the US, because of size difference, community structure, and cultural homogeniety issues.

I totally agree. We need not have a law that "requires" the citizenry be armed. But then again, there shouldn't be anything to deter those of us who want to from being armed.

I often tell people I am "pro-choice." I don't tell you to own a gun, don't tell me not to. The anti-gunners are usually pro-abortion. They lose a lot of ground when I use the term "pro-choice" on them.

[astralis]

7thsf,

Only if the guy with the M4 has bullets, can see and hear and is wearing a shirt that says "I hate people from Missouri".

who DOESN'T hate people from missouri?? hey, i'd still rather face off against the swiss knifer than a guy with a bullet-less M4- you can still use the dam' thing as a club.

I can see your point here and I think that Americans are going to have to get used to seeing these types of things because some of us are fed up with criminals having open season and we are volunteering our time and money as citizens to stand up say no more!

A Missouri CC permit cost me $100 for the training class to certify me, regardless of the fact I am an ex-soldier and cop. I still had to go as a private citizen to learn about exactly when it is legal to use my weapon. Another $100 for the background check, and another $30 at the DMV for my ID card. And the whole process took almost two months. I carry a $1000 Kimber 1911 in a $80 shoulder holster. Now double that because my wife did and has the same. I did not spend all that time and money to lose my temper or get drunk and shoot some dipsquat running his mouth at me or cutting me off in traffic. But my life, my wifes, and hopefully everyone elses life is worth at least far more than that. Isn't it. I wish people would realize that folks like us are NOT crazy. We simply give a shit about ours and others safety and rights as a human to be free from the threat of thugs and tyranny.

sure. the problem here is just the lack of signaling. people can't tell right away if you're just out there to protect yourself or if you're gonna blow them a new one.

looking at the 2nd Amendment,

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

then i think by all means that on the state or federal level there SHOULD be a militia. in return for getting rid of all bans on guns, ANYONE who owns a gun needs to enroll in the militia, get trained/rated for that weapon, and have that badge or uniform whenever they hold on to that weapon. guns and training must be accounted for on at least a semi-regularly basis, and any violation of laws while in possession of a weapon should be judged under a modified UCMJ, or at least more harshly than would be the case.

at once, this would be an excellent reminder that holding weapons is not JUST a right, it is a responsibility. and having a badge or uniform would act as the signal to others that one is at the very least aware of the power and possible consequences that a gun confers.