Haig and the British press,Germany's best ally

[Exarecr]

After watching Passchendaele,(finally a Canadian version),and then researching this idiots(Haig)s other military disasters unfold time after time it proves what the Canadian Corps already new after so much unnecessary bloodletting,....the British high command where the Germans best allies.More galling was the after battle reporting that blanketed England claiming a great"British" victory at Passchendaele.Much of the same nonsense occurred when Canada stormed and took Vimy and again the British press claimed another great British victory. Still,a lot of our own history of that period has been purposely removed from Canadian school texts because they glorify war.Hard to imagine WW1 is not taught in Canadian schools anymore. How sad and pathetic. Any country is doomed if it fails to record or teach it,s history to their future generations.The Dieppe raid was our worst military disaster in WW2 with almost 3,000 casualties,including over 900 dead in a matter of several hours(naturally,the British held back naval and air support).Who would have thought an amphibious landing needed fire support,silly Canucks.The politically correct version is one of Canadian terrorist troops murdering German vacationers who were on holidays.Oh well, on to my next read. D- Day,June 6 1944. Something about an invasion of Normandy,and maybe, just maybe the Canadians were in on this one?

[zraver]

Watchout the Haig defenders can get down right mean.

[treasure44]

After watching Passchendaele,(finally a Canadian version),and then researching this idiots(Haig)s other military disasters unfold time after time it proves what the Canadian Corps already new after so much unnecessary bloodletting,....the British high command where the Germans best allies.More galling was the after battle reporting that blanketed England claiming a great"British" victory at Passchendaele.Much of the same nonsense occurred when Canada stormed and took Vimy and again the British press claimed another great British victory. Still,a lot of our own history of that period has been purposely removed from Canadian school texts because they glorify war.Hard to imagine WW1 is not taught in Canadian schools anymore. How sad and pathetic. Any country is doomed if it fails to record or teach it,s history to their future generations.The Dieppe raid was our worst military disaster in WW2 with almost 3,000 casualties,including over 900 dead in a matter of several hours(naturally,the British held back naval and air support).Who would have thought an amphibious landing needed fire support,silly Canucks.The politically correct version is one of Canadian terrorist troops murdering German vacationers who were on holidays.Oh well, on to my next read. D- Day,June 6 1944. Something about an invasion of Normandy,and maybe, just maybe the Canadians were in on this one?

Haig is always portrayed as an idiotic and poor leader. he said to be responsible for the somme. he wasnt. the somme offensive was politicaly driven as the french were under huge pressure at verdun. the objective of the somme was never to take ground but to take pressure of the french. that was achieved. people say that it was madness for the troops to walk across no mans land. not so. the british believed that the german trenches would have been totally destroyed in the artillery bombardment, and that the troops would just being taking the ground. by the end of the war he had he moulded the conscripted british army into a fighting force that eventualy was instrumental in the defeat of the germany armies.

im not saying the somme was a complete success, but in terms of achieving its goals, it did so. a german officer was quoted "the somme was the death of the german army"

the press had to state victories because of the law put in place by Lloyd George so its not really their fault. the casualty figures were still there and if people looked it was obvious what had gone on. i think that this type of propaganda however is inexcusable because the government are conning people into joining up. but anyway...

[GraniteForge]

Haig is always portrayed as an idiotic and poor leader. he said to be responsible for the somme. he wasnt. the somme offensive was politicaly driven as the french were under huge pressure at verdun. the objective of the somme was never to take ground but to take pressure of the french. that was achieved. people say that it was madness for the troops to walk across no mans land. not so. the british believed that the german trenches would have been totally destroyed in the artillery bombardment, and that the troops would just being taking the ground. by the end of the war he had he moulded the conscripted british army into a fighting force that eventualy was instrumental in the defeat of the germany armies.

im not saying the somme was a complete success, but in terms of achieving its goals, it did so. a german officer was quoted "the somme was the death of the german army"

the press had to state victories because of the law put in place by Lloyd George so its not really their fault. the casualty figures were still there and if people looked it was obvious what had gone on. i think that this type of propaganda however is inexcusable because the government are conning people into joining up. but anyway...

This is a wonderful example of the typical approach of Haig's defenders.

Truth is, Haig himself insisted on his continuing attacks on the Somme. The idea that the French needed help is a canard that was concocted after the war in the opium dreams of his acolytes. Allied political leaders wanted to avoid combat where the Germans were obviously so strong; they favored reinforcing the Italians against the Austrians, to knock one of the Central Powers out of the war, and to also buck up the Russians. Haig would have none of it.

In his later Flanders fiasco, he insisted that he was just this close to breaking through to the Belgian port cities, and all it would take is just one more push. And then another, and then another, on and on. In each case Haig sat, unmoved by the pointless suffering of the soldiers, wrapped in luxury, and with a slight gesture of his noble pinky sent another hundred thousand of his conscripted slaves to their deaths. Finally, appalled by the staggering and pointless losses, the Allied governments simply stopped sending Haig enough replacements for him to do his butchery.

Of course, not only was Haig an idiot, he was also a coward, never getting close enough to the front to risk getting mud on his splendid personage, or risk seeing the results of his orders.

In many countries, he would have been spat upon as he walked the streets after the war. England made him an Earl, a Viscount, and a Baron.

[zraver]

Haig is always portrayed as an idiotic and poor leader. he said to be responsible for the somme. he wasnt. the somme offensive was politicaly driven as the french were under huge pressure at verdun. the objective of the somme was never to take ground but to take pressure of the french. that was achieved. people say that it was madness for the troops to walk across no mans land. not so. the british believed that the german trenches would have been totally destroyed in the artillery bombardment, and that the troops would just being taking the ground. by the end of the war he had he moulded the conscripted british army into a fighting force that eventualy was instrumental in the defeat of the germany armies.

im not saying the somme was a complete success, but in terms of achieving its goals, it did so. a german officer was quoted "the somme was the death of the german army"

the press had to state victories because of the law put in place by Lloyd George so its not really their fault. the casualty figures were still there and if people looked it was obvious what had gone on. i think that this type of propaganda however is inexcusable because the government are conning people into joining up. but anyway...

Hogwash, Haig pushed for the Somme, and he kept it going. He did the same in most of his attacks. And until late 1917 kept insisiting he was about to achieve breakthrough.

What makes Haig stupid, is his perseveranc ein the beleif that mass could overcome the machine gun. The losses an attacker would face were understood before the war. But Haig like French distrusted a conscript army made up mostly of city boys and so used what amounted to close order drill. A few divisional commanders were able to get their men trained in loose order formations, but Haig never took these lesson to heart and thus installing the type of training in 1916/17 that the Germans had demonstrated firs tin 1915 and with devastating effect in the spring of 1918.

The only reason Haig didn't lose more and gain less was the plethora of talented army, corps and divisional commanders Britain raised during the war.


Nor was the Somme the death of the German Feild Army. That quote comes from a lower rank. Rupprecht, with his much better access to numbers said he was willing to sell Britain as much territory as they wanted at the price they were paying.

Backing up the disaster of the Somme, is Haig's second attempt to kill as many Brits and dominion allies as possible with the battles of Flanders. Men drowned in the mud on the attack- that is inexcusable and a sign of a commander who is totally out of touch with reality.

[Bluesman]

http://worldaffairsboard.com/showpos...43&postcount=9

I covered my opinion on that madman almost five years ago.

[Bluesman]

And I am STILL holding my same opinion on the relative military worthiness of both Haig AND my dam' cat.

[dave lukins]

I'm not a 'fan' of Haig, however to call the dead and dying

conscripted slaves

is a bit close to the knuckle

[treasure44]

Hogwash, Haig pushed for the Somme, and he kept it going. He did the same in most of his attacks. And until late 1917 kept insisiting he was about to achieve breakthrough.

What makes Haig stupid, is his perseveranc ein the beleif that mass could overcome the machine gun. The losses an attacker would face were understood before the war. But Haig like French distrusted a conscript army made up mostly of city boys and so used what amounted to close order drill. A few divisional commanders were able to get their men trained in loose order formations, but Haig never took these lesson to heart and thus installing the type of training in 1916/17 that the Germans had demonstrated firs tin 1915 and with devastating effect in the spring of 1918.

The only reason Haig didn't lose more and gain less was the plethora of talented army, corps and divisional commanders Britain raised during the war.


Nor was the Somme the death of the German Feild Army. That quote comes from a lower rank. Rupprecht, with his much better access to numbers said he was willing to sell Britain as much territory as they wanted at the price they were paying.

Backing up the disaster of the Somme, is Haig's second attempt to kill as many Brits and dominion allies as possible with the battles of Flanders. Men drowned in the mud on the attack- that is inexcusable and a sign of a commander who is totally out of touch with reality.

i do not agree with haigs tactics or with as a commander generaly and ill admit i got a bit carried away in the "moulded conscripts" bit. but so did he with "conscriped slaves". but the germans took more casualties and took the pressure of the french. as for him pushing for the somme, the french originaly promised 40 divisions but supplies only 5 after verdun had begun. i also agree with him being out of touch with reality. the last episode of blackadder goes forth gives a great potrayal of his character. my veiw was swayed by a documentary with Gerneral moore falklands commander. ive researched more and decided he wasnt so great.

[zraver]

i do not agree with haigs tactics or with as a commander generaly and ill admit i got a bit carried away in the "moulded conscripts" bit. but so did he with "conscriped slaves". but the germans took more casualties and took the pressure of the french. as for him pushing for the somme, the french originaly promised 40 divisions but supplies only 5 after verdun had begun. i also agree with him being out of touch with reality. the last episode of blackadder goes forth gives a great potrayal of his character. my veiw was swayed by a documentary with Gerneral moore falklands commander. ive researched more and decided he wasnt so great.

German Losses were about 330,000 killed, wounded and POW at Verdun vs 378,000 French. German losses included almost all of the first batch of storm troopers and thier best assualt divisions. The Somme fell mainly on defensive and reserve divisions and had 450,000 killed, wounded or POW vs 650,000 allied losses. Those two battles saw Germany trade 780,000 losses vs 1,000,000 allied. The two big battles of 1917: Flanders and the Nivelle Offensive cost the allies another 593,000 losses vs around 400,000 German. 1918 saw the allies take 851,000 losse sin the spring vs 688,000 and a further 1million losses vs 785,000 German that fall. Had Germany been able to find a way to both feed herself and produce armaments the allies would likely have been held off until the full 2 million Americans the the thousands of planned mk VIII Liberty heavy tanks were present in 1919-20. The allied commanders were that bad. In Just 6 battles the allies managed to inflict 2.8 million or so German losses at a cost of 3.5 million to themselves.

[clackers]

i do not agree with haigs tactics or with as a commander generaly and ill admit i got a bit carried away in the "moulded conscripts" bit. but so did he with "conscriped slaves".

His attacks in 1915 were with volunteers, T44 ... Kitchener's 'New Army', with the Pals' Battalions, and so on ... and the later Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders were volunteers too.

His problem was committing them and all the conscripts in later years to trying to break cleanly through defensive lines in one go (unlikely against a defence in depth in 1914-18), instead of the 'bite and hold' tactics his subordinates like Plumer and Rawlinson were actually successful with (advancing only to the range of your own artillery, then waiting for your howitzers to be moved into position for the next push, a la fire and movement, just on a huge scale).

To make things worse, Haig repeated his plan again and again, his beloved cavalry waiting in the wings for the exploitation to Berlin that just never happened.

WW2 British commanders like Monty were conservative, methodical 'bite and holders' rather than 'let's go hell for leather' breakthrough types because of their dreadful experiences under those types of of general (like Haig and Gough) in WW1.

and took the pressure of the french. as for him pushing for the somme, the french originaly promised 40 divisions but supplies only 5 after verdun had begun.

Verdun was actually under control by August 1916. It had transformed into a killing field for the Germans and von Falkenhayn was to lose his job over it. Afterwards, the German army avoided attacking the British or French pretty much until 1918, when they did attempt it out of desperation ... and the effort finished them.

For a large country, by the summer of 1916 Britain had still not conducted much of the fighting, and it was felt that it was time to do something. The excuse back in 1914 that it couldn't take part in attacks because it needed time to raise and train a large army couldn't hold much longer.

But The Somme should have been cancelled when results were clearly not coming ... rather than four and a half months, after a week, perhaps ... some would say after the first day!

i also agree with him being out of touch with reality. the last episode of blackadder goes forth gives a great potrayal of his character.

Well, that was a pantomime performance by Geoffrey Palmer, of course, with little relation to the historical figure (sweeping the toy soldiers off the table into a bin indeed!) :)

Haig was a stubborn ex-junior cavalry commander of limited talent and expertise, terribly ill-suited to be C-in-C of a WWI infantry/artillery army.

But at the same time, he wasn't stupid, wasn't uncaring of his troops, and genuinely welcomed technology (such as tanks) as a way of shortening the fighting ... he just got away with bloody failure again and again in a way that his counterparts like Falkenhayn, Joffre, Cadorna, etc, were not permitted by their governments.

[clackers]

Had Germany been able to find a way to both feed herself and produce armaments the allies would likely have been held off until the full 2 million Americans the the thousands of planned mk VIII Liberty heavy tanks were present in 1919-20. The allied commanders were that bad. In Just 6 battles the allies managed to inflict 2.8 million or so German losses at a cost of 3.5 million to themselves.

Well, Germany was on the defensive from 1916 to 1918, sitting in their trenches behind barbed wire, machine guns and artillery, so we can expect their battlefield casualties to be somewhat lower than the British and French, who were advancing over No Man's Land toward their gunsights ...

Having said that, they collapsed real quick.

It was Foch's plan to ultimately take the attack into Germany in 1919 with lots of American troops in action, but after the German Army shattered itself with the Ludendorff Offensives, the defensive lines that had held for years prematurely crumbled under what were essentially only half-hearted probing attacks by the Allies.

Haig had learnt to keep his hands off the wheel and let commanders like Currie, Byng, Monash and Rawlinson win battles in their own way, but the magnitudes of their successes were not predicted by either Allied or German officers.

Those attacks gained such momentum that the 'Hundred Days' of 1918 is probably the greatest Twentieth Century achievement of the British Army.

Like Waterloo in the 19th Century and Blenheim in the 18th, it was done against the main army of the main enemy, on the main front, of a Continental war.

[ANZAC]

Some quotes by Haig.......


"The machine gun is a much over rated weapon.."
Haig - 1915.


Bullets have little stopping-power against the horse"


"Very successful attack this morning... All went like clockwork... The battle is going very well for us and already the Germans are surrendering freely. The enemy is so short of men that he is collecting them from all parts of the line. Our troops are in wonderful spirits and full of confidence."

A Report by Haig on the first day of attack, 1st July 1916.


"In another six weeks the enemy will find it hard to get enough men"

Haig believed in wearing the enemy down. He said the above after 2 weeks of the battle.


You will be able to go over the top with a walking stick, you will not need rifles … you will find the Germans all dead, not even a rat will have survived.

Before the battle of the Somme, the general assured their troops that the shells would destroy the enemy before they arrived.
[Not sure about the above quote ]


''The horse is the future. Aeroplanes and tanks only aid the man and his horse and I feel sure that as time goes on you will find just as much use for the horse – the well-bred horse – as you have ever done in the past.''

Even writing in 1926, Haig believed the horse would still be important in warfare. During WWI he felt that machine guns were hardly needed. The Prime Minister had to order him to send more to the front lines.



Even if some quotes are out of context, I think the last quote shows what the bloke is about.

[cape_royds]

The Allies for 1916 had planned combined offensives on both Western (Somme) and Eastern (Galicia) fronts. Offensives had to be combined in order to minimize the Central Powers' benefit of interior lines.

Falkenhayn threw the Allied plan out of gear by attacking in late winter at Verdun. The drain on French reserves forced a considerable reduction in the French frontage of attack at the Somme (originally intended to be a almost 50-50 Anglo-French venture). The Verdun crisis also pushed forward the date of the Somme offensive, which somewhat reduced the preparedness of the British "New Armies," and also spoiled the coordination with Brusilov's attack in Galicia.

Initially a disaster, at the Somme Haig was correct to persist in attacking, since the loss ratio actually became more favourable to the British as the Somme campaign wore on. Even Churchill, who in his World Crisis treats Haig pretty scathingly, admits this.

In 1917, however, Haig was mistaken to keep attacking at Third Ypres. The trend of loss ratios was the reverse of the Somme. But in mid-late 1917, the British were trying to prevent the final collapse of Russia, and were also trying to distract as many Germans as possible from the French front, while they recovered their morale and cohesion.

Another thing with the Western Allies is that without a truly centralized headquarters until the crisis of 1918, it took so much time to coordinate plans that the Allied generals would often persist with a failed plan, rather than reopen the political debates needed to change plans. The best way to get an idea of what was involved at the higher level of direction, is to read Hankey's memoirs, The Supreme Command.

[tankie]

Some quotes by Haig.......


"The machine gun is a much over rated weapon.."
Haig - 1915.


Bullets have little stopping-power against the horse"


"Very successful attack this morning... All went like clockwork... The battle is going very well for us and already the Germans are surrendering freely. The enemy is so short of men that he is collecting them from all parts of the line. Our troops are in wonderful spirits and full of confidence."

A Report by Haig on the first day of attack, 1st July 1916.


"In another six weeks the enemy will find it hard to get enough men"

Haig believed in wearing the enemy down. He said the above after 2 weeks of the battle.


You will be able to go over the top with a walking stick, you will not need rifles … you will find the Germans all dead, not even a rat will have survived.

Before the battle of the Somme, the general assured their troops that the shells would destroy the enemy before they arrived.
[Not sure about the above quote ]


''The horse is the future. Aeroplanes and tanks only aid the man and his horse and I feel sure that as time goes on you will find just as much use for the horse – the well-bred horse – as you have ever done in the past.''

Even writing in 1926, Haig believed the horse would still be important in warfare. During WWI he felt that machine guns were hardly needed. The Prime Minister had to order him to send more to the front lines.
Even if some quotes are out of context, I think the last quote shows what the bloke is about.

Self conceited old fart totally out of touch P,R,I,C,K., a bit like the out of touch old French Leaders in the 2nd world war .