Haig and the British press,Germany's best ally

[ANZAC]

Self conceited old fart totally out of touch P,R,I,C,K., a bit like the out of touch old French Leaders in the 2nd world war .

Unfortunately I have to agree tankie, although I think ALL Allied leaders [with a few notable exceptions] were a bit out of touch at the start of WW2, in fact it's nothing short of amazing how big a gap there was between the top Wehrmacht commanders [a list as long as your arm] and the scant few for the Allies.:(

[GraniteForge]

Unfortunately I have to agree tankie, although I think ALL Allied leaders [with a few notable exceptions] were a bit out of touch at the start of WW2, in fact it's nothing short of amazing how big a gap there was between the top Wehrmacht commanders [a list as long as your arm] and the scant few for the Allies.:(

There is a neighborhood here locally where all the streets are named for those Allied leaders. I always get a chuckle out of it, wondering if property values are lower there because the streets are named for such dubious characters.

[ANZAC]

There is a neighborhood here locally where all the streets are named for those Allied leaders. I always get a chuckle out of it, wondering if property values are lower there because the streets are named for such dubious characters.

Well at least you'd most probably pick up a good bargain property, then you could start a ''change the name's '' campaign.:))

[Bigfella]

Unfortunately I have to agree tankie, although I think ALL Allied leaders [with a few notable exceptions] were a bit out of touch at the start of WW2, in fact it's nothing short of amazing how big a gap there was between the top Wehrmacht commanders [a list as long as your arm] and the scant few for the Allies.:(

ANZAC,

I think you are gilding the lily here a bit. The advantage Germany had at the start of WW2 was not nearly as great as is often presented. A few things ran strongly in their favour that made them look good.

They had the advantage of experience every time they faced a potentially dangerous adversary. The Polish campaign allowed them a brilliant practice run for France. France & the Balkans did likewise for Barbarossa. Had the German Army commanders of October 1939 invaded France they might well have failed. This doesn't salvage the criminal incompetence of the French & (& some British) senior staff.

In the case of Russia the chaos & destruction of talent wrought by the purges of the late 1930s exaggerated Germany's advantages. I would argue that once Stalin allowed merit to determine position the Red Army turned out a crop of commanders every bit as good as their adversaries. This is even more remarkable given how many good men had been killed by Stalin. Imagine what the Wehrmacht might have looked like if it had been similarly purged.

Germany did indeed produce a talented crop of Generals in WW2, but lets not get carried away.

Interstingly, they did little better in WW1 than anyone else.

[GraniteForge]

They had the advantage of experience every time they faced a potentially dangerous adversary. The Polish campaign allowed them a brilliant practice run for France. France & the Balkans did likewise for Barbarossa.

Not especially. Poland, for all its photographic veneer of armor and air support, was just a classic campaign of infantry, cavalry, and artillery.

The breakout across France led to a completely different kind of war, and the sheer scale of Barbarossa turned Russia into something else, again. Reading unit narratives across the span of the war, it is clear that when they tried to apply the lessons of one campaign to the next, the Germans were made to pay for it.

[GraniteForge]

Well at least you'd most probably pick up a good bargain property, then you could start a ''change the name's '' campaign.:))

I always enjoy talking to people from that area; I try to work in a couple of the names, my favorite being "Joffre Street." Very few can properly pronounce it. The most popular utterance seems to be "Joff-Ree." I wonder if they have ever had difficulty on a 911 call!

[Bigfella]

Not especially. Poland, for all its photographic veneer of armor and air support, was just a classic campaign of infantry, cavalry, and artillery.

The breakout across France led to a completely different kind of war, and the sheer scale of Barbarossa turned Russia into something else, again. Reading unit narratives across the span of the war, it is clear that when they tried to apply the lessons of one campaign to the next, the Germans were made to pay for it.

GF,

I realise that Poland wasn't the classic armoured 'Blitzkrieg', but the German officer corps did get valuable experience. It gave them the chance to identify issues such as co-ordinating air support & such that made the next fight easier.

Poland helped to identify areas to train on in the gap between campaigns. Simply having the experience of running a good sized war was valuable in itself for the officers & men involved. It wasn't the only edge the Germans had in 1940, but it was an edge.

I don't dispute that as a body German Generals were superior to their counterparts among the Western Allies, especially in 1940. I do get a bit sick of what I see as overpraise. The Germans were good enough to ride their luck in 1940, but it was much closer run than it looked. Given the chance to learn from their mistrakes the way the Germans & later Russians did, I believe that the British & French would have looked a lot better in 1941.

Had any number of the things that could have gone wrong actually gone wrong I don't think we would be getting so weak at the knees about The Sainted Rommel & his murderous comrades.

[tankie]

There is a neighborhood here locally where all the streets are named for those Allied leaders.

I bet people get pissed off when asked for their address ,,,oh yes i live at 69 wanker street ,just off bumhole plaza ,right next to shitferbrains alley ;)

[clackers]

The Allies for 1916 had planned combined offensives on both Western (Somme) and Eastern (Galicia) fronts. Offensives had to be combined in order to minimize the Central Powers' benefit of interior lines.

IIRC, the Somme offensive was so unsuccessful at pinning reserves that during the operation eighteen German divisions were transferred away from the Western Front to fight Brusilov in Galicia!

Initially a disaster, at the Somme Haig was correct to persist in attacking, since the loss ratio actually became more favourable to the British as the Somme campaign wore on.

It was a disaster all the way through, CR. If you thought day one was pointless, in the month between 15 July and 14 September, there were 82,000 British casualties in return for an advance of 1,000 yards. In six weeks, New Zealand lost one percent of its population.

Favourable attrition was Rawlinson and Plumer's objective ... 'bite and hold' meant that the shoe was on the other foot when the Germans counterattacked to recapture lost territory ... they were now advancing over open ground, the targets of howitzer and machine gun fire.

But Haig had a different objective - rapid breakthrough, not high losses on both sides. And he never got it.

The furthest penetration at the Somme after four and a half months of fighting was six miles. Disgracefully, the final stage of the battle had completely political goals - to take a couple of villages that had been first day objectives, in order to report some success to the French who instead wanted to divert Allied resources to the Balkan front.

In the end, the debacle ended up reflecting badly on Britain's political leadership ... it was one of the reasons Asquith had to resign.

So the Prime Minister went, but Commander-in-Chief Haig got to stay, and in fact got promoted to Field Marshal!

[tankie]

The only good thing about the name HAIG is that they named a whiskey that , and it aint very good neither is it Ooe ;)

[clackers]

Had the German Army commanders of October 1939 invaded France they might well have failed.

Indeed ... even the senior generals of 1940 don't make up a very inspiring list:

von Rundstedt, von Kluge, List, Busch, von Bock, von Reichenau, von Kuchler, von Leeb, von Witzleben and Dollman ...

Model, von Manstein, Rommel and Kesselring only become Field Marshals after starting behind those guys ...

[ANZAC]

GF,

I don't dispute that as a body German Generals were superior to their counterparts among the Western Allies, especially in 1940.

That's all I was saying.:)

[ANZAC]

In as far as there is a single explanation for Germany's stunning victory in France, it would probably be the brilliant conception of Manstein's attack, and carried out by commanders like Guderian, Hoth, Reinhardt and Rommel.

[clackers]

Even then, it needed some mediocre opposing generalship to not get bogged down at the Meuse River, Anzac, and the French High Command delivered that in spades! :)

[zraver]

Even then, it needed some mediocre opposing generalship to not get bogged down at the Meuse River, Anzac, and the French High Command delivered that in spades! :)

That is a bit unfair, when the Allies gathered to meet the expected sweep across the low countries, there were simply not enough good divisions left. The best generals in the world would ahve failed given the quality of the French troops on the Meuse.