Airpower versus Artillery

[Shamus]

How cold's cold? I was so cold and tired on Saturday 1am, with flashlights banned, I ended up at the wrong stag position for my platoon's harbour area, and when I got to the right one I was hallucinating. But that's only the British countryside and not enough warm kit on. Still, I take it neither you nor I would perform well in this: http://www.drum.army.mil/sites/insta.../img/222-1.jpg Makes me long for bed just looking at it. :)

Aw c'mon David,that picture could have been taken in my back yard right now...errr....minus the mountain range in the far background and the gents in full kit;):)).

[HistoricalDavid]

Your own fault, should have worn the correct equipment.:P

If I wear the warm kit and burn so much and two calories in physical effort, I sweat like a rapist in a sauna. No seriously, even with helly hansen > t-shirt > norgie > fleece > combat jacket, I'm often still cold.

Aw c'mon David,that picture could have been taken in my back yard right now...errr....minus the mountain range in the far background and the gents in full kit;):)).

Having weapons and a mission does increase the "responsibility" factor a bit. :)

[S2]

Chaobam Armor

"Artillery is spread not concentrated ?"

Spread the tubes-concentrate the fire.

[gabriel]

"Artillery is spread not concentrated ?"

Spread the tubes-concentrate the fire.

The artillery in the task force is under the command of the divisional commander or the task force commander ?

[S2]

Chaobam Armor

Shamus is from Michigan. He speaks truth. I know what you mean, Chaobam Armor. We called them Alberta Clippers in Wisconsin. Crap would roll into Wisconsin with -30F at 0400-0500hrs. Awful time of the day. Then the wind picks up as the sun rises. Oh boy!

Ft. Drum, N.Y. I'm guessing.

Oh well. I'm demoralized and ready to surrender just talking about it.

I've heard of plenty of cold injuries at that big training area in England too-what Brecon Beacon or Salisbury. Seems like it's a big, wet, treeless, gorse-filled marsh.

Duck hunting weather can suck mightily and kill you too.

[Kernow]

The artillery in the task force is under the command of the divisional commander or the task force commander ?

A Battle Group is Commanded by a Lt. Col (British Army), therefore all assets within that Battle Group is comtrolled by the said Lt. Col. If he requires additional support he will call into Brig HQ, and if it is available he will get it.

[S2]

Gabriel Reply

We've three types of MTOE artillery- Dedicated, direct-support, and general support. Let me explain.

In my day, the only artillery that was organic to a unit's TO&E was the howitzer batteries found in the CAV Squadron (battalion for you Brits) of a Corps-level Armored Cav Regiment. Note corps-level. That's important.

Division artillery falls under the command of the DIVARTY C.O. (O-6 Colonel). He'd control and execute the fires of three direct support battalions and one general support battalion on behalf of the gaining division. TO&E for both Divisional arty battalions and armored cav how batteries include forward observers which are attached to manuever units within their organizations.

At the Corps level, artillery fires are commanded and directed by a Corps Artillery Commander (O-7 Brigadier General). He is assigned field artillery brigades and battalions that can be shifted at any time by an army level command. It was entirely possible during Desert Storm for an F.A. brigade to be providing general support fires to 18th Airborne Corps on one day and find themselves sliced over to VII Corps on the next.

Pick up yer gear and go.

These brigades are comprised of general support artillery battalions-not direct support. As such, the most notable TO&E difference might be the number of tubes (24 in DIVARTY 155mm battalions, 18 in Corps G.S. 155mm battalions) and the absence of F.O.s. None. As all fires are general support, general support-reinforcing, or reinforcing, calls for fire are generated by those units that are being reinforced.

Artillery is never held in reserve in the U.S. military. Not Army and not marines. No breaks for us. 24-7 for somebody down-range until the shooting stops.

A lil' rundown as I remember matters. Hope it helps.:)

[gabriel]

If he needs artillery support he would get it from other batle groups as well or only from HQ ?

[S2]

Gabriel Reply

"If he needs artillery support he would get it from other batle groups as well or only from HQ ?"

One or the other or both...or neither. It's possible that from time to time there might be a few more targets than tubes.

Makes for a long day all the way around...:))

[gabriel]

These brigades are comprised of general support artillery battalions-not direct support. As such, the most notable TO&E difference might be the number of tubes (24 in DIVARTY 155mm battalions, 18 in Corps G.S. 155mm battalions) and the absence of F.O.s. None. As all fires are general support, general support-reinforcing, or reinforcing, calls for fire are generated by those units that are being reinforced.

Without F.O. how the general support artillery battalions provide offensive fire, interdiction or counter battery fire ?

One or the other or both...or neither.

That makes my ask again ... Who is in control of the artillery organic to a task force ?

[Kernow]

As I said before a Battle Group is commanded by a Lt. Col. therefore he commands all assets under his Command, which includes Arty. A Battle Group is part of a Brigade, which is Commanded by a Brigadier. Battle Group Commanders get their order from the Brig. If a Battle Group comes into contact with the enemy, that information is relayed back from the contacting troops i.e. Armd Recce, to Command Troop of the Armd Sqns, the Lt. Col will assess the situation, and if he feels that the Battle group can take out said enemy he will, however the information he has been given goes bacl to Brig HQ, and if there are additional requirements above and beyond what the Battle Group has i.e. Fast Attack Aircraft, Attack Helicopters, GMLRS etc. he will ask, this is where the Brig comes into play, he may assign an additional Battle Group, aircraft etc.

[Kernow]

How did we get onto Artillery when it started out as 'Centurions'?

Oooops wrong thread.

[S2]

Gabriel Reply

"Without F.O. how the general support artillery battalions provide offensive fire, interdiction or counter battery fire ?"

D.S. arty F.O. sees target and issues a call-for-fire. D.S. battalion receives target and assesses profile. Assuming it needs more, the target can be passed to the DIVARTY TOC (tactical operations center) and assigned to the divisional G.S. battalion or to attached G.S. battalions/brigades from Corps Arty.

Counter-battery fire is typically executed on targets generated by FIREFINDER (AN/TPQ-36/37 Counter-Mortar Radars) unless spotted visually or (occasionally still) sound-flash ranging. Digitally wired between radar and gaining artillery unit right into their AFATDS computer in the FDC. Firing data generated and digitally sent to guns. Voila!

Rounds on the way!!!

In an attack, G.S. battalions/brigades may be attached to a Division and, possibly, further attached. Lots of redundancy built into receiving targets to service.

"That makes my ask again ... Who is in control of the artillery organic to a task force?"

Because it's a "task force", the implication is that it's an ad hoc organization of battalion size. As such, there'll be NO artillery organic to that force. NONE. The only artillery that is ORGANIC remains the howitzer batteries of a corps-level Armored Cav Squadron operating as part of an Armored Cav Regiment.

The term "task force" has specific doctrinal meaning in the U.S. military. We mix and match company-sized armor and infantry units within brigades to create battalion-sized "task forces". We further mix and match platoons of those companies within that "task force" to create company-sized "teams".

So a brigade comprised of two infantry battalions and one armor battalion may be task-organized to create three battalion-sized "task force"[s] within the brigade. Artillery is allocated by mission. Some units will be in direct support of that gaining manuever brigade. It will be their F.O.s on the brigade's battle-space. Other artillery battalions may provide reinforcing fires to the D.S. battalion supporting the brigade.

It's a rare day when an artillery battalion has only line of authority or one end-user of their fires.

[gabriel]

As I said before a Battle Group is commanded by a Lt. Col. therefore he commands all assets under his Command, which includes Arty. A Battle Group is part of a Brigade, which is Commanded by a Brigadier. Battle Group Commanders get their order from the Brig. If a Battle Group comes into contact with the enemy, that information is relayed back from the contacting troops i.e. Armd Recce, to Command Troop of the Armd Sqns, the Lt. Col will assess the situation, and if he feels that the Battle group can take out said enemy he will, however the information he has been given goes bacl to Brig HQ, and if there are additional requirements above and beyond what the Battle Group has i.e. Fast Attack Aircraft, Attack Helicopters, GMLRS etc. he will ask, this is where the Brig comes into play, he may assign an additional Battle Group, aircraft etc.

Thank you.
If he concludes that he cannot release his task force in order to provide support for another Battle Group it is free to do so ?

[gabriel]

Counter-battery fire is typically executed on targets generated by FIREFINDER (TPSQ-36/37 Counter-Mortar Radars) unless spotted visually or (occasionally still) sound-flash ranging. Digitally wired between radar and gaining artillery unit right into their AFATDS computer in the FDC. Firing data generated and digitally sent to guns. Voila!

The counter battery radar is attached at division level or corps level ?