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TTL, I've heard of a separation of Persian vs Arab, is this part of it or is the Sunni/Shia doctrine the main difference?
Probably both... people have multiple identities (religious, national, ethnic). There's an Iranian guy at work who happened to be studying here when the Iranian Revolution happened... he hates both Arabs and Islam with a passion. He actually refers to the ayatollahs as a "bunch of f-cking Arabs", "the black turbans, that means they're f-cking Arabs" and so on.
"Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."
Aryajet actually sunnis also believe in 5 pillars of islam. The main difference is about the schisim between Ali and Muhammed I think which is more of a theological subject and actually does not have much to do with everyday life habbits.
My mother is an azeri and my whole family on mother's side are also azeri and I can understand what they are saying. Not abstract or advanced topics of course but enough for me to see around in Tebriz by myself. Maybe your dialect is different than theirs.
So TTL do all Muslims believe in the coming of the Saheb-ul-Zaman? or is it a Shia belief?
We've seen Arabs and Sunnis pretty much dominate the whole of Muslim nations. There would definately be a switch in power, that is if Iran is still around. If Hezbollah and Hamas are still around, they'd definately become rulers of their countries.
You'd have Iran the superpower, backed by the Syria, Lebonan, Palestine/Israel
So TTL do all Muslims believe in the coming of the Saheb-ul-Zaman? or is it a Shia belief?
Even among the Shiites there are several factions, some believe in 3 or 6 and others 7 Imams, but the term you used to describe "Mahdi" is the belief amongst 12er Shiite (Esna Ashari, meaning 12) only.
Aryajet actually sunnis also believe in 5 pillars of islam. The main difference is about the schisim between Ali and Muhammed I think which is more of a theological subject and actually does not have much to do with everyday life habbits.
TTL,
I don't think this thread is appropriate venue for discussing this fundamental differences between Sunni and Shiite belief, but I would swiftly skim over them for you.
What Sunnis call 5 Pillars of Islam are actually called "Secondary Pillars of Islam" by Shiites and they are 8 not 5. They have their own version of primary Pillars of Islam. Here are the list of the Five Pillars of the Shia sect: (in that order)
1- The Oneness of God (tawhid).
2- The Justice of God ('adl).
3- Prophethood (nubuwwah).
4- The Leadership of Mankind (imamah).
5- The Resurrection (me'ad).
The Five Pillars of the Sunni sect are:
1- The Testimony that there is none worthy of worship except God and that Muhammad is his messenger.
2- Establishing of the five daily Prayers (salah).
3- The Giving of Zakaah (charity), which is generally 2.5% of the yearly savings for a rich man working in trade or industry, and 10% or 20% of the produce for agriculturists. This money or produce is distributed among the poor.
4- Fasting from dawn to dusk in the month of Ramadan (sawm).
5- The Pilgrimage (Hajj) to Mecca during the month of Dhul Hijjah, which is compulsory once in a lifetime for one who has the ability to do it.
Mind you not even single 1 matches each other. If there was not any compelling differences in between then how else they could justify slaughtering each other for so long and still they do it today (i.e Iraq)?
I just want to share...There are also 5 pillars of (sunni) faith. /bold/.
1- The Oneness of God (tawhid). faith to the God
2- The Justice of God ('adl). faith to fate (kader/kaza)
3- Prophethood (nubuwwah). faith to prophets
4- The Leadership of Mankind (imamah). faith to existence of angels
5- The Resurrection (me'ad). faith to life to come (ahiret)
I am really curious about this. Lets say Israel is wiped out entirely somehow. Having no borders with it or power projection capability or any citizens-ethnic links what Iran hopes to gain from it? Arabs will not welcome them as a leader anyway since they are not sunni and especially not Arabian so whats the catch for them?
I suspect this whole Israeli - Iranian conflict is to keep their population under control using nationalistic-religious feelings.
I'm not sure if Turkey can stand up to Iran they've got a large army (nato's second largest) with modern equipment but they are a member of Nato and so can't play from the bully pulpit of being insane the way that Iran can. If turkey starts trying major power projection into the middle east they would loose alot of their European trade and ties.
I fully agree that a direct war between the two results in a win for Turkey but when it comes to armed force projection into the middle east as a whole turkey can't really make threats.
I'm not sure if Turkey can stand up to Iran they've got a large army (nato's second largest) with modern equipment but they are a member of Nato and so can't play from the bully pulpit of being insane the way that Iran can.
I think Turkey has already begun to play the bully pulpit in ME. Maybe not the way you think for Iran.
If turkey starts trying major power projection into the middle east they would loose alot of their European trade and ties.
I don't think so. If Turkey increases her "influence" in ME the way Europe and US want she strengthen her hand. I mean at the moment by pissing to Israel she is getting hearts of Arabs while Arab governments were confused because of Iran-Hamas relations. I guess both Arabs and Israelis enjoy that because it reduces Iran's influence. Btw, Turkey can be considered as puppet state due to political and economic reasons.
We've seen Arabs and Sunnis pretty much dominate the whole of Muslim nations. There would definately be a switch in power, that is if Iran is still around. If Hezbollah and Hamas are still around, they'd definately become rulers of their countries.
You'd have Iran the superpower, backed by the Syria, Lebonan, Palestine/Israel
Mind you not even single 1 matches each other. If there was not any compelling differences in between then how else they could justify slaughtering each other for so long and still they do it today (i.e Iraq)?
Well actually it seems to me that 4 out of 5 points matches but thats not the point. Of course there is differences between sunnis and shias but I believe they justify slaughtering each other for so long and yet still today by nationalism and politics. Religious differences like any other kind of diffrence can be used to provoke conflict if doing so is in the interest of ruling authority.
I think Turkey is militarily capable to stand against Iran but with the recent weapons programs Iran is pursuing we might be outgunned in wmd and offensive-defensive ballistic missles.
On the issue of Turkey projecting power to ME we are even more capable than Iran on this but I agree our relations with the west is an important factor. However I think this is not always a negative influence as for example our military cooperation with Israel gives us great leverage on Syria. Yet both Turkey's and Iran's capabilities on this matter seems unimportant to me since they are nothing compared to US and therefore it seems that ME will remain under American influence and Iran becoming a superpower in ME with syrian - palestine backing is not going to happen.
TTL;607510]Well actually it seems to me that 4 out of 5 points matches but thats not the point. Of course there is differences between sunnis and shias but I believe they justify slaughtering each other for so long and yet still today by nationalism and politics. Religious differences like any other kind of diffrence can be used to provoke conflict if doing so is in the interest of ruling authority.
TTL,
You don't see the differences and I do. I'm not trying to magnify them, I wish there wasn't any therefor 100s of 1000s of lives could be saved through out the history. So we'll leave it at that.
I think Turkey is militarily capable to stand against Iran but with the recent weapons programs Iran is pursuing we might be outgunned in wmd and offensive-defensive ballistic missles.
I don't think Iran and Turkey are any threat to each other, those 2 nations have been living next to each other for more than 3 centuries without any tangible dispute. Culturally, historically and economically there are plenty of commonality in between for these 2 nations to remain friends for a long time. JMHO
On the issue of Turkey projecting power to ME we are even more capable than Iran on this but I agree our relations with the west is an important factor. However I think this is not always a negative influence as for example our military cooperation with Israel gives us great leverage on Syria. Yet both Turkey's and Iran's capabilities on this matter seems unimportant to me since they are nothing compared to US and therefore it seems that ME will remain in American influence and Iran becoming a superpower in ME with syrian - palestine backing is not going to happen.
See above!
At the same time it is difficult to predict long term peace considering the confrontational foreign policy of Islamic Republic.
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