UK considers JSF pullout

[Jimmy]

You sound like a petulant schoolboy who is not getting his own way..........And I consider the 2 fronts we are fighting, and will remain in to the end, much more than a game GG, when it comes to fighting and winning we never play............think we have run our course on this one GG take care.

Question: GB or Canada?

Also, calm the hell down. Nobody's attacking you here, but you seem pretty hell-bent about making this a brawl.

[T_igger_cs_30]

Take it easy there gents... ;)

As I said TH & OoE its run its course no worries

[wrightwing]

Eurofighter can carry more than 15,000 lbs, IIRC. Plus more air-to-air stuff.

You have to be actively looking for work to get the dole, by the way.

If the JSF is carrying external stores, it too can carry a lot more A2A stuff. It's still misleading to compare the JSF in stealth mode with another aircraft that's not trying to be particularly stealthy. You also need to compare the number of sorties the 2 aircraft can do, when the F-35B has the STOVL, meaning it can operate closer to those it's supporting, and in stealth mode, get in prior to air defenses being suppressed/destroyed.

[jlvfr]

"Navalizing" the Eurofighter would not only cost tens of millions (massive overall strutural reinforcement, protection against salt corrosion, maybe even folding wings because it's almost 2 meters more wingspan than VTOL JSF, navalized elecronics, new landing gear, landing hook...), not to mention how many years this would take...

So, if the UK dumps the JSF, it will have only 2 realistic alternatives for it's carriers: the F-18 or the Rafale. Let's face it, even in it's latest version, the F-18 is basically an early 80's plane. So the best choice would be the Rafale. It might be cheaper (?) than the JSF, but then the UK would need to buy catapults/arrestor gear for the carriers, along with it's associated maintenance and support costs...

Of course, I'm sure Putin wouldn't mind selling you some Su-33 or Mig-29K for the carriers. I'm sure they'd be really cheap :))

[Stan]

If we do ditch the JSF we should only consider the Rafael - its a good plane for the money.

In all honesty the fact that the UK isnt putting Catapults and arresting gear on the CVF is one of the most rediculous things out of the mod.

We need the E2 hawkeye so we need catapults - its almost that simple.

In all honesty I would like the UK to stay in the JSF programe but I would rather we switched out for the F-35C.

Comminality with the USA would be good - we have already had US marines working off one of our carriers - in the future how unlikly would it be too have the same thing happen again but in a war zone?

If we want to have carriers and we want the advantages of a big carrier lets do it right,

[VarSity]

it is worth noting that selling the F-35 to the UK is very risky.

Doesn’t a French company run all of our flight simulators? So its reasonable to say that giving the F-35 to the UK also gives the French all of the flight data, air dynamics and probably a lot of the software as well.

I am sure there are plenty of other EU countries we have similar deals with as well. Im not a huge fan of the F-35, or how the US has handled the deal.. but I can understand why they are hesitant.

[Stan]

Varsity its a little like anything where a company has spent years and years developing and testing a product to sell to the market.

Why would you want to go and give another company all of your data so they can produce the same thing as you for half the cost because they didnt have to pay for any RnD

[VarSity]

Varsity its a little like anything where a company has spent years and years developing and testing a product to sell to the market.

Why would you want to go and give another company all of your data so they can produce the same thing as you for half the cost because they didnt have to pay for any RnD

Exactly, so I can see where the US is coming from. Maybe its time the UK assessed the situation.

It's all well and good having an alliance with someone, but when they are still competitors in a market its makes things difficult.

I am very sceptical about the whole Europe thing, especially if something as small as flight simulators are causing problems with massive defence contracts. We should be much more independent than we are in terms of our support structure, especially if we are getting involved in big projects with other nations, such as the JSF.

Hell if the French do all our flight sims, doesn’t that mean they have all the technical data of the Typhoon? if that’s the case they will have an advantage in 20 years when Europe starts to look at a replacement for the Typhoon. Might be a small issue, it just makes me uncomfortable.

[Jimmy]

Anytime the French have access to US/UK military hardware, I'd be concerned.

[Tarek Morgen]

Anytime the French have access to US/UK military hardware, I'd be concerned.

More then with the Israelis?

[VarSity]

Anytime the French have access to US/UK military hardware, I'd be concerned.

Exactly, so I can really see where the US is coming from.

Really we should be cutting the French out of defence as much as possible, they are a competitor in the defence market, so why are we letting them in the door?

[Stan]

The point of all of this is that the JSF like all major fighter programes is over running costs in all areas and the MOD has at this time lots of those projects to pay for.

New hunter attack subs - astute
New carriers
New destroyers
Eurofighters
The need for more Helicopters
2 war zones
Emergency buy orders coming out of there ears

and a budget that has grown but less than inflation.

Add to this the fact that they are being crucified every 10 minutes by the press for issues such as accommodation in the UK and payouts to injured soldiers.

Unless the MOD gets an extra 10 billion this year and for the forseeable future.

[VarSity]

The point of all of this is that the JSF like all major fighter programes is over running costs in all areas and the MOD has at this time lots of those projects to pay for.

**list of stuff cut to save space**

and a budget that has grown but less than inflation.

Add to this the fact that they are being crucified every 10 minutes by the press for issues such as accommodation in the UK and payouts to injured soldiers.

Unless the MOD gets an extra 10 billion this year and for the forseeable future.

But where is this money going to come from? I never thought i would say this... but roll on a Torie government!

[highsea]

The reason the UK is a partner in JSF is to get the offsets.

BAE makes the aft fuse and empennage, along with various subsystems for all variants. The handful of frames the UK buys is a pittance when measured against the money they will make on the thousands of F-35's the US and other customers will procure. Pulling out of the program would be disastrous for BAE.

Making a fuss over the cost of 24 frames, when BAE will be manufacturing a significant portion of the thousands of frames that will ultimately be produced is idiotic.

It's all about offsets, gentlemen.

[Stan]

Highsea makes a very good point, the industrial offsets arranged in the F-35c are worth their weight in gold. I still think the UK shoudl switch to the C version, but BAE systems play a pivotel role in the production of the B version along with Rolls Royce.

The real step should be to involve BAE systems with the productions of EMALS and get that started. That technology is going to be worth a lot of money, the Indians will be intrested in it for sure. It will also in future play important roles in the design and size of air craft carriers.

Varsity, there are plenty of places we get that money from, were just not willing to do it.
NHS last year cost us £90 billion. Im not so sure it was worth it.

Also we spent 40 billion bailing out Northern rock, if you really need the cash its there just waiting for us to ask for it.

I some times think that we should hire out our armed forces to the USA, we offer them legitamisy by forming a multi national force when they wanna do something and for that we get payments to keep us up to speed equipment wise.

It sounds fair to me!