Sino Pakistan Military Relations.

[haroon]

Considering Musharraf stated that nukes were not ready during Kargil, it is highly doubtful that Pakistan was ready for nuclear war in the 80s.

During Kargil conflict the nuclear use was not an option considered even remotely. In Pakistan at that time PM had his finger on nuclear button which had no intention to use it as he was deceived on Kargil right from the begining.

[Officer of Engineers]

I can also say with authority that in 1999 our nuclear capability was not yet operational.

General Pervez Musharraf, [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Line-Fire-Memoir-Pervez-Musharraf/dp/0743283449]In the Line of Fire[/ame], page 97-98

[haroon]

General Pervez Musharraf, In the Line of Fire, page 97-98

If you want to go with Musharraf thats your choice because I do not trust him and his book is not anything near to depiction of historical facts.

[Officer of Engineers]

Back up a few steps here.

1) If this article is true, then the 1st succesful Pak test was 1990.
2) We know the subsuqent tests in 1998 were duds - don't say anything else, even the Chinese have stated as such and it's their designs.
3) We know that AQ Khan's notes found in Lybia were dated 1985.

This all means that Pakistan had no operational nukes in 1987.

[n21]

Although I have no idea if Pakistan had nukes in 1987, my opinion on if Pakistan will use nuke is as follows:

1. The first line of defence for Pakistan is not nukes. Despite Mushraff(or PA) threat to use nukes they will not restore it until their "power hold" in Pakistan hangs in balance.

2. If Pakistan wants to use nukes they would NOT have diverted the American aid to build up their conventional arm.This means PA intends to fight. However "threatening" to use nukes is definitely the PA's first line of defence.

3. A PA General would not like to loose his power,his post retirement benefits(and his family) by using nukes just because some hundreds of Pakistani soldiers might have died in a Indian conventional attack.

Another proof that PA's threat is bluff is the 2001-2002 stand-off with India. The stand off was a "undeclared war" and IA did attack PA positions. We would have known by now if PA actually intended to use nukes.

[haroon]

Back up a few steps here.

1) If this article is true, then the 1st succesful Pak test was 1990.
2) We know the subsuqent tests in 1998 were duds - don't say anything else, even the Chinese have stated as such and it's their designs.
3) We know that AQ Khan's notes found in Lybia were dated 1985.

This all means that Pakistan had no operational nukes in 1987.

What AQ khan's notes you are talking off?

[Officer of Engineers]

The Chinese lecture notes that were part of the package AQ Khan sold the Lybians which also included the blueprints for a CICH-4 warhead.

[xinhui]

Haroon:

Change the topic a bit, for the past two weeks, there has been an unusually attempt by China to be a regional broker in SE Asia, I want to see what your impressions.

China firmly with India on terror

Sandeep Dikshit

Beijing wants New Delhi and Islamabad to resolve issue through dialogue

China described India as a strategic partner: Menon

NEW DELHI: India on Monday shared with China material about the involvement of elements in Pakistan in the Mumbai terror attacks and urged it to influence Islamabad to cooperate in bringing the culprits to book.

Besides discussing bilateral issues, Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon provided dossiers on phone intercepts between the terrorists and their handlers, material recovered from the abandoned boat and the bodies of terrorists besides other details to visiting Chinese Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei.

“We shared some material. There was no denial that there is terrorism and it is coming out of Pakistan. China described India as a strategic partner and Pakistan as close and very important for China. But it is clear that on terrorism China stands very firmly with us,” Mr. Menon said.

The two sides also noted the interaction on cooperation-related issues and resolved to make sure that the Joint Working Group on Counter-Terrorism worked more effectively.

Mr. He wanted India and Pakistan to resolve the issue through dialogue and assured New Delhi that Beijing would sift through the material provided by it.

“We had very good talks with the Foreign Secretary ... We got a full briefing from our [Indian] colleagues. We would study them [the evidence] of course ... We would see. My visit here is to encourage both sides to find a way out through dialogue and consultation … it is the best way,” he told journalists.

Mr. He, who visited Pakistan 10 days ago, noted that his interaction with both nations showed they had the will to find a way out through talks.
Boost to trade

On trade, he said the figure of $ 50 billion was exceeded last year and both sides hoped to increase it to $ 60 billion by 2010.

India has been in touch with Pakistan’s allies — the U.S., China and Saudi Arabia — and urged them to ensure that Islamabad fulfils its international obligation of bringing the terrorists to book.

http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/06/stor...0659521000.htm

One view from Pakistan

Chinese peace initiative
Thursday, January 01, 2009
With India-Pakistan tensions still running high, China has stepped in to try and defuse a crisis that is rocking stability in Asia, and indeed across the world. The Chinese intervention is a reminder of just how acute anxiety is over the ferocious war of words between Islamabad and New Delhi that erupted a month ago, following the terrorist attacks in Mumbai. In Islamabad, the Chinese vice foreign minister met virtually every civilian and military leader of any note, including the president, the prime minister and the chief of army staff. They have seemed able to persuade him of the good intentions of Pakistan. The key leaders all stressed their desire for peace while pointing out Pakistan’s right to defend itself. Mr He Yafei has praised Pakistan’s approach and called its attitude ‘constructive’. He will presumably now take this message to New Delhi, where he is to meet Indian leaders. The Chinese dignitary has made it clear that his country is committed to helping both countries avoid conflict and that it wished to urge them to show restraint.

The Chinese diplomacy is welcome. It has seemed clear for some time that there was a need for third-party intervention of one kind or the other. While the war hysteria has mercifully begun to decline, there is a sense that both countries need help in backing away from their entrenched stands. For the moment India continues to demand Pakistan act on evidence made available to it. Pakistan insists it is ready to cooperate in the investigation, but lacks sufficient proof to act against any individual or group. In New Delhi, Mr He Yafei is sure to hear details of the materials India says it has provided to Pakistan and assertions that these be acted on. Indeed, it seems likely the matter would have come up for discussion during the intense talks in Islamabad. Diplomats from the UK and other countries are said also to have discussed the issue with top Pakistani leaders. There is no getting around the fact that it will need to be tackled. Pakistan must accept that terrorist outfits do exist within its frontiers. It must make an effort to break up their networks, but it must do so in a manner that makes it clear it is acting for its own interests, and also those of the world, rather than solely because of New Delhi’s strident demands. China can play a part in assisting it in this.

A compromise between the two positions needs to be reached. India would do well also to pay heed to Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi’s suggestions regarding the deployment of troops and activation of forward air bases. A palatable solution offered to both countries. But amidst all the diplomatic spiel that is necessary to bring the situation back to normal, it must not be forgotten that terrorists are the real enemy. Both India and Pakistan have a great deal to gain by initiating a joint effort to combat them. The two countries have suffered immensely due to terrorist offensives. The latest peace efforts must then also be directed towards creating a mechanism and a will to take on terrorists together, put the ugly rhetoric of war aside and work towards a South Asia free from militant attacks that have already destroyed so much within the region, and which could, in the future, destroy still more.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=154852

From Outside

China steps up effort to ease India-Pakistan tension
Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:55pm IST



By Robert Birsel

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Indian and Pakistani military officials held an unscheduled hotline call, a Pakistani security officer said, as China joined efforts to ease tension between the neighbours inflamed by last month's militant attacks in Mumbai.

India has blamed Pakistan-based militants for the assault on Mumbai in which 179 people were killed, inflaming old hostilities between the nuclear-armed rivals and raising fears of conflict.

China's Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei arrived in Pakistan on Sunday and was due to meet Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, the Pakistani Foreign Ministry said.

"He is visiting in the context of this current situation between India and Pakistan. China is playing a very positive role," said Pakistani Foreign Ministry spokesman Mohammad Sadiq.

The South Asian neighbours both tested nuclear weapons in 1998. They have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947 and came to the brink of a fourth after gunmen attacked the Indian parliament in December 2001.

Although most analysts say war is very unlikely, international unease is growing and the United States has urged both sides not to further raise tension.

Senior military officials from India and Pakistan held an unscheduled conversation on a hotline at the weekend, said a Pakistani security officer, who declined to be identified.

The two countries' directors general of military operations talk every Tuesday, but spoke at the weekend because of "the current situation", said the officer. He declined to give details.

Pakistan has condemned the Mumbai attacks and has denied any state role, blaming "non-state actors".

India, the United States and Britain have blamed the attacks on Pakistan-based Islamist group Lashkar-e-Taiba, set up by Pakistani security agencies in the late 1980s to fight Indian rule in the disputed Kashmir region.

The group was banned in Pakistan in 2002.

"ABSOLUTE RUBBISH"

Since the attacks, Pakistan has detained scores of militants, including several top leaders, and shut offices and frozen the assets of the Jamaat-ud-Dawa charity group, which the United Nations says is a front for the LeT.

India is demanding Pakistan dismantle what it calls the infrastructure of terrorism.

Sadiq said China was not pressing Pakistan to do more to suppress militants.

"China is not putting any pressure. We are acting against militants anyway and they are here to defuse tension. They are not the 'do-more' crowd," he said, referring to countries such as the United States which Pakistan says continually demand more action.

The Chinese minister was due to travel to India later on Monday, another government official said.

As tension has increased, Pakistan has cancelled army leave and shifted some troops from its western border with Afghanistan.

Pakistani military spokesmen have denied any build-up of troops on the eastern border with India, but a security official said some troops had been moved to that border.

Pakistani military officials have declined to say how many troops had been moved off the Afghan border, where 100,000 soldiers had been fighting al Qaeda and Taliban militants, saying only "limited numbers" were involved.

One military official, who declined to be identified, described as "absolute rubbish" a report that 20,000 soldiers had been withdrawn from the western border and moved east.

"There is no truth in that ... limited troops from snow-bound areas have been withdrawn and placed where required," said the official.

The movement of Pakistani troops off the Afghan border is likely to cause alarm in the United States, which does not want to see Pakistan distracted from the battle against al Qaeda and Taliban militants.

(Additional reporting by Augustine Anthony and Kamran Haider)

One view from India

India rebuffs China's bid to play peace 'broker'
30 Dec 2008, 2122 hrs IST, Indrani Bagchi, TNN
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...ow/3915094.cms

NEW DELHI: China's aim of playing some kind of an "honest broker" between India and Pakistan did not end up as it had imagined.
Although Pakistan welcomed Chinese special envoy He Yafei with open arms on Monday, India developed some last-minute hearing disability that prevented him from visiting Delhi. It left China with a mission incomplete, but a message from India that cannot be ignored.

According to reports from Pakistan, the Chinese envoy met the top leadership in Islamabad and told them to "de-escalate" tensions with India. He also said a conflict would only strengthen the hands of terrorists. China, he said, was "deeply worried about the resurfacing of tensions in South Asia".

Over the weekend, during a phone call made by China's foreign minister Yang Jiechi to Pranab Mukherjee, he suggested that resuming talks with Pakistan could be constructive. Mukherjee, already on a short fuse, rejected any such suggestion. But Pakistan picked up on it and its foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi on Tuesday repeated the call for resumption of talks.

The official Chinese version of the phone conversation said, "China hopes that India and Pakistan, both important neighbours of China, would bear in mind regional peace and stability, properly handle related issues through dialogue and consultations, and continue to improve their relations and to push forward the peace process between the two countries."

India's discomfort with such do-good missions is well known and China certainly is no stranger to it. But clearly, China wanted to get a foot into the cauldron here, thereby achieving a couple of key objectives, said sources. First, to acquire a status of the regional big brother, keeping squabbling countries at peace, and second, to keep India in "its place" - the South Asian box.

India has tried hard to widen the terrorism debate after the Mumbai attacks beyond Pakistan, but without much success. Part of the reason is the history of the region and partly because Pakistan wants to keep it to the bilateral dynamic. In this, Pakistan is helped along by China.

China had put a "technical hold" on the ban of the JuD in the UN Security Council and only relaxed it after the Mumbai attacks made it impossible to keep on with it.

[martinmystry]

Haroon:

Change the topic a bit, for the past two weeks, there has been an unusually attempt by China to be a regional broker in SE Asia, I want to see what your impressions.

I don't think it's good to change the topic just because OOE has named china was behind Pak nukes as every one knows about it.Xinhui should stop derailing the topic being discussed. Actually the topic has just got interesting and knowledgeable for us who weren't aware of chinese lecture notes in AQ package to libya.

As far as chinese attempts are concerned India is aware that china is too soft on pak even when such a credible proof is being given by both India and U.S. to Pak as well as to china by India and not to forget that the terrorists were carrying chinese grenades.The fact is that India doesn't trust chinese as they should be considering previous chinese steps of blocking U.N. on banning Jamat and NSG clearence.

[xinhui]

if I want to detail the topic,I can mod the posts. Also anyone can continue with the existing topic or open a new thread on whatever they wish to discuss.

[xinhui]

The fact is that India doesn't trust chinese as they should be considering previous chinese steps of blocking U.N. on banning Jamat and NSG clearence.

The other side of the coin, the Chinese government does not trust India government also, but one must start the CBM somewhere. The security arrangement between India and China has been improved slow since the "China is enemy number one" statement.

[Kommunist]

Huh? Dont extend facts

I can see great enhancements in joint research products as both countries are really deeply engaged in developing their own AWACS and radar systems.

Well, I have to eat my own word now.

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNew...37090320081218
Pakistan to buy Chinese AWACS to boost air defence - report

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan is to buy an airborne warning and control system (AWACS) from China to boost its air defences, a Pakistani newspaper reported on Thursday.

The News newspaper said a $278 million agreement had been struck for Pakistan to get the Chinese system within four years, on a deferred payment basis.

Pakistani defence procurement officials were not immediately available for comment.

They are not the same, are they? Buying and co-developing/joint research are two totally different things. If you mean that China uses the money from sale of defense equipment to Pakistan as capital for future development, then you could be correct;). But in that case, as per Xinhui, Banglasdesh is a more contributing member for Chinese Defense R & D:)), as they buy more stuff.

Basically, China will sell anything and everything to Pakistan (can't supply anything better than nukes, can they?:))) to counter-balance India in the region. Pakistan will keep India busy so that the Chinese dont have worry about India, and it can concentrate on more pressing issues like Tibet and Taiwan.

[Tomluter]

One Mountain Division of PLA got into the border of Sino-Pakistan,and performed maneuvers this month.

see the pictrues.

[KENT]

Check out the history dude the political scenario was quite different at that time. Hot tests are essential part to determine efficacy of nuclear capablity but cold tests are continously conducted to keep the data updated. Check out the link below regarding operation Brasstacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Brasstacks

Buddy, how can we world viewers can rest our hopes on World dangerous Theaf in the form of Mr. A Q Khan. Go and search for something more creadible rather then what Pakistan greatest ever theaf had farted.

[Kommunist]

if I want to detail the topic,I can mod the posts. Also anyone can continue with the existing topic or open a new thread on whatever they wish to discuss.

Whose posts, sir? OOE'Sir's ?