Mariott Hotel at Islamabad destroyed

[sun]

If true, then they should be rounded up ad locked. The entire problem of India is due to its moronic leaders; not due to any particular community. Anti-hate laws or something like that should be passed; where anyone spewing hatred should be rounded up and punished; be it radical religious fundoos (be they Islamists or Bajrangis), or selfish self serving clowns like the Thackerays.

It is true reported in news and everyone knows.

I don't think whole of Jamia Nagar is full of radicals. But where were others when these idiots shouted death to kaffirs.

What prevented them from stopping these fundoos. Is that soft corner some were deep inside the mind towards fundamentalists?

[Ray]

Infinity,

I find the Smiling Fathers and Sisters allegory very amusing.

I am aware of Christianity, though of the Anglican Church since I was associated with it. I have abandoned religion altogether since I found it was more of a corporation than working for Jesus. The Anglican Church has now amalgamated into the Church of North India.

The unfortunate part of Christianity in India, is that there are many who converted because of the need for survival. They are called Rice Christian. Rice Christian is a term used to describe person who has formally become a Christian out of the need for survival.[1] It is often used pejoratively.
The term comes from Asian countries, such as India, in which local populations who had failed to grow their own food used Christianity to get food from the missionaries, who asked them to convert in exchange (i.e., if you want rice, become a Christian).[2] Concerns have been expressed both by Christian missionaries and by those opposed to Christian missions that people in these situations are nominally converting to Christianity in order to receive charity or material advancements.[3]
The term is used nowadays to refer to "anyone who becomes a Christian for socio-economic or political reasons of gaining benefits."[4]
References

1. ^ "Rice Christians.". Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1898). Retrieved on 2007-04-17.
2. ^ Nancy Louise Rutherford (2001). "The TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD Student Survival Guide". Retrieved on 2007-04-17.
3. ^ Way of Life Baptist publication (2005-07-11). "Baptists Tired of Being Swindled by Rice Christians". ChristianAggression.org. Retrieved on 2007-04-17.
4. ^ Rice Christian node at Everything2.

These days these US churches are going rather aggressively at bringing salvation and not all their practices are above board.

Having said that, I cannot also concede that the VHP and the Bajrang Dal to be any better than the Baptists and the Pentecostals. They are following a vicious agenda too.

The Moslems with Saudi money are also very active and they are best organised.

What is required is get money out of this conversion racket of all religions. Yes, it is money and less of God.

And these politicians are the real ones who are to blame.

[abhishek]

But there is a glaring difference between the militant Hindu, and militant Muslim movements Sir Ray. The most important difference, the only one that really matters at the end of the day.

Militant Hindus do what they do because they want to "save" India. Their reasoning might be flawed, but their intentions are essentially nationalistic. They wave the Tri-color at their congregations. They sing "vande maatram" at their schools. At the end of the day, their loyalty still lies with the lands of India.

Militant Islamism, strives for pan-Islamism. They have no nationalistic feelings or intentions. India is just a small part of their greater picture. And the tragedy of it all, Indian muslims, a vast majority of them, sympathize with them. Don't take my word for it ? Start a conversation with a seemingly moderate muslim about terrorism and you will surprised how conveniently terrorism is justified. Start with a muslim school teacher for maximum shock. Its all because they are the victim. Everyone hates them.

And its not even terrorism thats the greatest source of mistrust towards muslims in India. It is disloyalty and hypocrisy. Moderate muslims have divided loyalities. Extremist mulsims do not. Thats why i have a sliver of respect for the latter. Atleast they do not talk with a forked tongue.

[Infinity]

Infinity,

I find the Smiling Fathers and Sisters allegory very amusing.

I am aware of Christianity, though of the Anglican Church since I was associated with it. I have abandoned religion altogether since I found it was more of a corporation than working for Jesus. The Anglican Church has now amalgamated into the Church of North India.

The unfortunate part of Christianity in India, is that there are many who converted because of the need for survival. They are called Rice Christian. Rice Christian is a term used to describe person who has formally become a Christian out of the need for survival.[1] It is often used pejoratively.
The term comes from Asian countries, such as India, in which local populations who had failed to grow their own food used Christianity to get food from the missionaries, who asked them to convert in exchange (i.e., if you want rice, become a Christian).[2] Concerns have been expressed both by Christian missionaries and by those opposed to Christian missions that people in these situations are nominally converting to Christianity in order to receive charity or material advancements.[3]
The term is used nowadays to refer to "anyone who becomes a Christian for socio-economic or political reasons of gaining benefits."[4]
References

1. ^ "Rice Christians.". Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1898). Retrieved on 2007-04-17.
2. ^ Nancy Louise Rutherford (2001). "The TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD Student Survival Guide". Retrieved on 2007-04-17.
3. ^ Way of Life Baptist publication (2005-07-11). "Baptists Tired of Being Swindled by Rice Christians". ChristianAggression.org. Retrieved on 2007-04-17.
4. ^ Rice Christian node at Everything2.

These days these US churches are going rather aggressively at bringing salvation and not all their practices are above board.

Having said that, I cannot also concede that the VHP and the Bajrang Dal to be any better than the Baptists and the Pentecostals. They are following a vicious agenda too.

The Moslems with Saudi money are also very active and they are best organised.

What is required is get money out of this conversion racket of all religions. Yes, it is money and less of God.

And these politicians are the real ones who are to blame.

Sir, you might find it amusing, but thats the way I remember my school days. :) During my time though there were some activities like free distribution of Bible among us, beautiful catholic korean girls coming to our school for some dance program and sermons (we boys loved that :D), some sort of preference of catholic students over protestant students while attending prayers in cathedral, but it never exceeded beyond that. I still keep that Bible along with my Bhagwad Gita in my cabinet(though both are beyond my ability to understand because I cannot understand the language in wich those books are written.)

However Sir, I agree with your point: religion institutions of today have become some sort of money minting organizations. Recently one of my friend's father went to attend some RSS meet for first time. On chat with my friend's father, he told that he reluctantly went over there. And he found that there were other reluctant attendees like him in that meet. According to him the meeting started on topic of conversions, on how to convert them back etc. Surprisingly accordingly to him he along with his other like minded friends posed a very simple question: "Among all of us who were present in the meeting, how many are from so called lower or tribal class?" It was not surprising that no answer came. The thing is poor is pawn among the intellectuals. Intellectuals seek a way to boost their ego and poor seek a way to make his ends meet. Who among them really cares about real Salvation/Nirvana?

I agree lot of money from middle east is pouring in. I used to live for quite a while in Tadiwala Road in Pune which was near to Muslim majority slum area. And infact it was not uncommon to find people coming from uae, sudan visiting those slums who did not how to talk in english or hindi living in a big Mosque which was in middle of that slum.

Sir, we know that Politicians should be blamed, which is understood, but the thing is how to checkmate them, why give them the reason for creating divison?

PS: Intresting list of books Sir, I would definately like to pick some of the titles for reading.

[abhishek]

In all the hoopla about terrorism, the real cause of Hindu resentment and anguish against muslims has been forgotten. Terrorism is just a spark on the mountain of gunpowder thats been gathering for decades. That mountain is the sum of small events, snippets of news, everyday observations that one has through his life. The anti-muslim resentment builds up over time. When muslim schools refuse to sing the national anthem on our independence day, when muslims want to follow Shariah laws instead of Indian laws, when Taslima Nasreen is hounded out of India over "alleged" insults of Islam in her book while MF Hussain gets away with painting nude paintings of Hindu gods and godesses, when your fellow muslims worry about Palestine more than they worry about the floods in Bihar, when you see Pakistani cricket match victory over India being celebrated by firecrackers in your own city, when you get called a 'kaffir' in your own land, when muslims sympathyze with terrorists and rail against the police of killing them even before the blood those terrorists spilled on the streets of Delhi is yet to dry, when you see police lathi charging tri-color waving crowds in Jammu while Pakistani flag waving crowds in Kashmir are given a free run. Its an unending list of little events that shape our minds bit by bit.

Terrorism is a very minor issue when compared to this mountain of hypocrisy.

[bolo121]

Is it so Bolo? so Hindus got alienated when Britshers came and showed us our warts? Or did it spring up reformists movements like Rammohun Roy's Brahmo Samaj, Swami Vivekanand's Ramkrishna Mission, reforms by Mahatma Phule, Reforms by Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar, Swami Dayanand's Arya Samaj, Yogada Satsanga Society etc. Or for that matter Mahatama Gandhi. Didn't it bring a revolution in the way the Hindus think presently?

I dont know why people are afraid to tell Muslims that something is wrong in their religon's ideology which causes some of lust for blood of non muslims and majority of you to support them. Please as I said its not the person but its thoughts and its actions that matter the most! They cannot radicalize beyond a point. After certain point they would have to ask themselves can they afford to continue this path or should they start understanding what others are saying and start putting their house in order!. Any community or organization for that matter can be thought as if its a Human Being. A Human Being considers itself to be perfect, smartest, pious, righteous and greatest of all untill he is shown his own warts by somebody holding a mirror to him. Bolo our job is not to remove those warts but just to show those warts!

An invalid comparison. The british were a new and unknown quantity in india.
While missionaries did come to india, there was no heavy organised push to convert the heathen by HM Govt. The British were interested first and always in making as much money as they could from us and playing the great game.
No multi thousand year legacy of war and slaughter separated them.
For us indians with the legacy of deep religious hatred we have to cope with to expect the same thing is silly.
Currently it is only a certain part of the muslim community taking up arms. Imagine if the majority openly joined the fundoos!
It would make for a huge insurgency coupled with religious killing across the nation.

[Guest]

Nadir Shah and Timur did not commit atrocities, because they were muslims, they commited atrocities because they were Nadir Shah and Timur.

They did it, because

1. they believed that they are muslims
2. it is their duty to bring the rule of Allah in this world
3. it is their duty and privilege to destroy paganism
4. they believed that Allah provided them the privilege to kill kaffirs
5. killing kaffirs will qualify to reach the heaven

Edit :
No other religion classified people as friend and foe, except Islam.

[Guest]

Edit :
No other religion classified people as friend and foe, except Islam.

I am no expert in various religions and ideologies, but in my opinion religion and ideology are one and alike and can be lump together. Therefore, with that view that are more than one ideology that paint such a black and white picture. Even Bush's crusade (ideology of freedom) divides the world in friend (with us) and foe (against us) spheres.

Furthermor, I will submit to you that Nadir Shah and Timur would have done the exact samething even if they were NOT muslims. They did it those things because it was in their character. If anything Timur lookedup to ghost of the revered Jenghiz Khan, and Nadir looked up to the ghost of revered Timur, as their role model. None of them looked up to the Koran.

1. they believed that they are muslims

Nadir Shah was a sunni, who rapidly turned into Shiasm, when he needed to be the Shah of Shia nation. Such rapid change of heart does NOT show absolute devotism to ones religious belief.

Timur was Shia muslim, yet had he being born several centuries before, he would have seen to his benefit to be Sunni muslim. Had he being born in Spain, he would have chosen no doubt to embrace the Catholic Church, and fight the muslims and other Christians.

Another example is Napoleon who converted to Islam, when sought the support of the Sublime Porte, yet sold them out to Russia in 1807.

2. it is their duty to bring the rule of Allah in this world

Nadir Shah's and Timur's fictional duty to bring the rule of Allah in this world was not much different than Napoleon's bid to be the emperor, with the forced blessing of the Pope. They were all ambitious blood thirsty conquerors and tyrants, waging war not for anything else than their own pleasure. Religion was a facade, tool and vehicle. Nothing more.

3. it is their duty and privilege to destroy paganism
4. they believed that Allah provided them the privilege to kill kaffirs
5. killing kaffirs will qualify to reach the heaven

All true, yet Timur destroyed far more muslims than of any other religous groups. They only Christians that felt the wrath and the fury of Timur were the Goergians.
Nadir Shah waged war against muslim Afghans and muslim Ottomans, as well, as Indians.

Just to point out that they waged war if they needed to wage war, either for pleasure or strategic gains. But not for religious believes.

[chankya]

I would rather reword it Sir, political parties harp on existing divides and tensions within the country for their own benefits.

Since we have studied in Christian School, for us image of Christian is a smiling, polite Sister or Father whose image still brings in humility in our hearts, or the fun filled Christmas festivities in our school. I am against these attacks on the Christians so is the opinion in my friend circle. On this very topic today my sister told me about the chat she had with her Catholics Friends. My sister was expressing sorrow for recent spate of attacks on Christian churches with her Catholic friends. She was startled when one of her Catholic friend regretted that these tensions were partly created due to over enthusiastic Coercive Evangelism drive among tribals driven by so called forgien originated NGO's, to which she had been witness in her state Kerela. I am really saddened what has happened to "Jiyo aur Jino Jeene do" Concept of Hinduism and "Live and Let Live" concept of Christianity? Christianity is infact one of the most old religions of India. Even older than Islam. We havent heard about any friction bewteen Hindu religion and Christianity. I think it has shown the way how an Abrahmic religon can not only coexist but also supplement Hinduism. But why these riots now!? I simply fail to understand.

Back in Chennai I know of a neighbor who makes it a mission to convert the people in the slums next door. She provides medicines and money provided they convert. And then she inspects those homes every weekend to ensure there are no Hindu gods hidden away somewhere. This is a somewhat predatory behavior in that she actively seeks out sick people for this. On the other hand they might well not have received that kind of access to money without her and people do have a right to convert. It's morally abhorrent but legally above board. So what's the judgment?

I'm quite confused in my own opinion of the above. However I do believe that things like that are a large part of the reason for the crisis in relations between Hindus and Christians. And it isn't just some mythical foreign missionary. These are ordinary people. A neighbor like mine perhaps.

Part of the reason for this confusion stems from other christians I know, for instance a certain Col. M. who owns a shop and gives away all his profit to poor people in need of medicines, education etc. He does this with no mind on conversion and does this regardless of the religion of the people.

So not all Christians are in this but I think people tend to look on him as a good human being(rather than as a christian) and my neighbor as being representative of Christianity(rather than just as a predatory human) and the anger builds.

On a related note I find it really odd that second and third generation convertees are far more extremist in their religious views than either the first generation convertees( who tend to be in for mostly mercenary reasons) or
people in whose family a single religion goes back a long time.

[Ray]

I don't buy this "Hindu resentment".

If the Hindus do nothing to reform its religion and let it slide or do nothing to change the lifestyle of the poor Hindus, then they have no reason to whine if others try to change the status of those poor Hindus, even with allurenent,

[Dreadnought]

Islam is hitting back with vengeance!

Sir, So would it be proper to just bomb all of Islam irregardless of country in return?

[chankya]

I don't buy this "Hindu resentment".

If the Hindus do nothing to reform its religion and let it slide or do nothing to change the lifestyle of the poor Hindus, then they have no reason to whine if others try to change the status of those poor Hindus, even with allurenent,

The only problem being that no one really cares whether you personally buy it or not. That's whats happening. There are similar issue with the hundreds of Middle-east financed mosques cropping up all over.

Now in most temple funds are actually controlled by the government. This means that temples cannot disburse money offered by devotees for whatever charitable task you may have in mind. Of course no restriction or control of this sort extends to churches or mosques.

The trouble is where the govt. shackles or is perceived to be shackling one religion whereas all the rest aren't.

[dilawar]

If the Hindus do nothing to reform its religion and let it slide or do nothing to change the lifestyle of the poor Hindus, then they have no reason to whine if others try to change the status of those poor Hindus, even with allurenent,

,

Ray, but Hindu's have desperately initiated reforms to themselves and even got a Dalit to write their secular constitution. Who do you think is responsible for India being a secular, liberal democracy? Christians, Muslims? Or the 85% Hindu's resident in India?

Who do you think is responsible for the poverty that engulfs communist Bengal or Maoist Jharkand? Hindu's? The Hindu's that follow Communists and Maoists here have abandoned their faith and gone for atheistic communism and Chinese Maoism bringing ruin and despondency with them. It's not Hinduism which has done that. It's Marxism, Maoism that are responsible. To use that despondency against Hinduism and induce/ coerce conversion from Hinduism is disgusting.

It was parties like Jan Sangh, precursors to the so called 'Nationalistic' Hindu BJP party since 40 years ago that preached the virtues of capitalism. It all sunk with the clamor of the Nehruvian socialist, highly Macaulized, Westernized, Brown Sahibs like Nehru. We know the damage that that ideology has caused.

Have you heard of the work that missions like Ramakrishna do? Thought about how now hundreds of millions are being uplifted from poverty? Who's doing that? The missionaries? Mother Teresa?

It's a Western philosophy called Communism that's prevalent in your state that prevents Tata from operating the Singur plant. Industries don't want to come to Bengal because it pursues those ideologies. They do want to come to Gujarat which is Modi's state. So while Gujarat has a PC income of 10000 USD yours has 500.

'St' Xavier after whom colleges are named was no less than Aurangzeb. He was responsible for the inquisition, torture and the murder of tens of thousands. Check out the Goan inquisition and the tortures used by the Church. You'll puke.

Also i'm not a BJP person. Just want the truth spelt out as it is. No point in blaming Orthodox Christianity for what the USSR was or Christianity for what Nazi fascism did to Germans, and no point in asking Hindu's to reform when states like yours are run by Maoists and Commies.

[Ray]

Sir, So would it be proper to just bomb all of Islam irregardless of country in return?

Tough question.

I live in India. Therefore, it would be very PC and honorable if I bombed myself instead!!:P:))

[Ray]

The only problem being that no one really cares whether you personally buy it or not. That's whats happening. There are similar issue with the hundreds of Middle-east financed mosques cropping up all over.

Now in most temple funds are actually controlled by the government. This means that temples cannot disburse money offered by devotees for whatever charitable task you may have in mind. Of course no restriction or control of this sort extends to churches or mosques.

The trouble is where the govt. shackles or is perceived to be shackling one religion whereas all the rest aren't.

If temple funds are controlled by the govt, who has stopped the Mosque and Church funds also to be controlled.

If your govt is made up of impotent characters, why blame others?