Pakistani Genocide

[Jay]

Robert Payne describes scenes of systematic mass slaughter around Dacca that, while not explicitly "gendered" in his account, bear every hallmark of classic gender-selective roundups and gendercidal slaughters of non-combatant men:


Bengali intellectuals murdered and dumped at dockside in Dacca.

In the dead region surrounding Dacca, the military authorities conducted experiments in mass extermination in places unlikely to be seen by journalists. At Hariharpara, a once thriving village on the banks of the Buriganga River near Dacca, they found the three elements necessary for killing people in large numbers: a prison in which to hold the victims, a place for executing the prisoners, and a method for disposing of the bodies. The prison was a large riverside warehouse, or godown, belonging to the Pakistan National Oil Company, the place of execution was the river edge, or the shallows near the shore, and the bodies were disposed of by the simple means of permitting them to float downstream. The killing took place night after night. Usually the prisoners were roped together and made to wade out into the river. They were in batches of six or eight, and in the light of a powerful electric arc lamp, they were easy targets, black against the silvery water. The executioners stood on the pier, shooting down at the compact bunches of prisoners wading in the water. There were screams in the hot night air, and then silence. The prisoners fell on their sides and their bodies lapped against the shore. Then a new bunch of prisoners was brought out, and the process was repeated. In the morning the village boatmen hauled the bodies into midstream and the ropes binding the bodies were cut so that each body drifted separately downstream. (Payne, Massacre [Macmillan, 1973], p. 55.)


Atrocities against Bengali Women:
In her ground-breaking book, Against Our Will: Men, Women and Rape, Susan Brownmiller likened the 1971 events in Bangladesh to the Japanese rapes in Nanjing and German rapes in Russia during World War II. "... 200,000, 300,000 or possibly 400,000 women (three sets of statistics have been variously quoted) were raped. Eighty percent of the raped women were Moslems, reflecting the population of Bangladesh, but Hindu and Christian women were not exempt. ... Hit-and-run rape of large numbers of Bengali women was brutally simple in terms of logistics as the Pakistani regulars swept through and occupied the tiny, populous land ..." (p. 81).

Typical was the description offered by reporter Aubrey Menen of one such assault, which targeted a recently-married woman:

Two [Pakistani soldiers] went into the room that had been built for the bridal couple. The others stayed behind with the family, one of them covering them with his gun. They heard a barked order, and the bridegroom's voice protesting. Then there was silence until the bride screamed. Then there was silence again, except for some ****led cries that soon subsided. In a few minutes one of the soldiers came out, his uniform in disarray. He grinned to his companions. Another soldier took his place in the extra room. And so on, until all the six had raped the belle of the village. Then all six left, hurriedly. The father found his daughter lying on the string cot unconscious and bleeding. Her husband was crouched on the floor, kneeling over his vomit. (Quoted in Brownmiller, Against Our Will, p. 82.)

"Rape in Bangladesh had hardly been restricted to beauty," Brownmiller writes. "Girls of eight and grandmothers of seventy-five had been sexually assaulted ... Pakistani soldiers had not only violated Bengali women on the spot; they abducted tens of hundreds and held them by force in their military barracks for nightly use." Some women may have been raped as many as eighty times in a night (Brownmiller, p. 83). How many died from this atrocious treatment, and how many more women were murdered as part of the generalized campaign of destruction and slaughter, can only be guessed at (see below).
http://gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

[Jay]

I think you used this source to iterate your point, now read this,

In the middle of January the story gained sudden credence. An Asian
relief secretary for the World Council of Churches called a press
conference in Geneva to discuss his two-week mission to Bangladesh.
The Reverend Kentaro Buma reported that more that 200,000 Bengali
women had been raped by Pakistani soldiers during the nine-month
conflict, a figure that had been supplied to him by the Bangladesh
authorities in Dacca. Thousands of the raped women had become
pregnant, he said. And by tradition, no Moslem husband would take
back a wife who had been touched by another man, even if she had
been subdued by force. "The new authorities of Bangladesh are trying
their best to break that tradition," Buma informed the newsmen.
"They tell the husbands the women were victims and must be
considered national heroines. Some men have taken their spouses back
home , but these are very, very few."

A story that most reporters couldn't find in Bangladesh was carried
by AP and UPI under a Geneva dateline. Boiled down to four
paragraphs, it even made The New York Times.

.....But more pressing concerns than marriage has to be faced. Doctors
sent to Bangladesh by International Planned Parenthood discovered
that gynaecological infection was rampant. "Almost every rape victim
tested had a venereal disease," an Australian physician told The New
York Times.

The most serious crisis was pregnancy. Accurate statistics on the
number of raped women who found themselves with a child were
difficult to determine but 25,000 is the generally accepted figure.
Less speculative was the attitude of the raped, pregnant women. Few
cared to bear the babies. Those close to birth expresses little
interest in the fate of the child. In addition to the understandable
horror of rearing a child forcible rape, it was freely acknowledged
in Bangladesh that the bastard children with their fair Punjabi
features would never be accepted into Bengali culture - and neither
would their mothers.

.....Dr. Geoffrey Davis of the London-based International
Abortion Research and Training Centre who worked for months in the
remote countryside of Bangladesh reported that he had heard of
"countless" incidents of suicide and infanticide during his
travels. Rat poison and drowning were the available means. Davis
also estimated that five thousand women had managed to abort themselves by various indigenous methods, with attendant medical complications.

....






http://drishtipat.org/1971/war-susan.html

[lemontree]

Hongkongfeuy,
De-classified telegrams from US Embassy Dacca to Washington.
Selective genocide.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB1.pdf
Butchering of students at the Univercity.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB4.pdf
Terrorising the population
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB5.pdf
Mass graves and rapes.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB6.pdf
....

[Hongkongfuey]

Ok, lets for a moment consider that the people who attended the conference were indeed scholars, lets see what you going to reply about this...

In the center of Dacca, the main city of East Pakistan, the army set fire to 25 square blocks and then mowed down those trying to escape.<72> Thousands were massacred in Dacca in the first few days<73> and the killings spread throughout the countryside. Bengali guerrilla resistance led to further bloody reprisals. U.S. consular officials in Dacca reported privately to Washington that "selective genocide" was going on.<74> A World Bank mission reported in July that in every city it visited there were areas razed and in every district there were "villages which have simply ceased to exist."<75> Sober estimates by the summer put the death toll between two and three hundred thousand.<76> ("When one fights, one does not throw flowers," Yahya told the press<77>). Literally millions of Bengalis fled across the border into India in what was probably history's largest one-way movement of refugees in so short a time.<78>

72. _Time_, 3 May 1971, in U.S. Senate, Subcommittee to Investigate Problems with Refugees and Escapees of the Committee on the Judiciary, _Relief Problems in East Pakistan and India_, part 1, 92nd Cong., 1st sess., 28 June 1971; part 2, 92nd Cong., 1st sess., 30 Sept. 1971; part 3, 92nd Cong., 1st sess., 30 Sept. 1971, p. I:105.

73. See news reports reprinted in U.S. Senate, _Relief Problems in East Pakistan and India_, pp. I:104-05.

74. Morris, _Uncertain Greatness_, p. 216.

75. U.S. Senate, _Relief Problems in East Pakistan and India_, p. I:212.

76. _Le Monde_, 10 June 1971; _New York Times_, 14 July 1971 (Sydney H. Schanberg), _Washington Post_, 23 Aug. 1971 (Stephen Klaidman), reprinted in U.S. Senate, _Relief Problems in East Pakistan and India_, pp. I:180, 163, II:342.

77. Interview with _Le Figaro_ reported in _New York Times_, 29 Sept. 1971, quoted in U Thant, _View from the U.N._, Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1978, p. 426.

78. John P. Lewis testimony in U.S. Senate, _Relief Problems in East Pakistan and India_, p. II:242.

http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/ShalomHumnCri.html


Now, as you see these are testimonials given in US Congress. I will consider these as authentic than Sarmila Bose's research that was done a long time after the genocide itself took place.

"Were indeed scholars"?? lol

• Dr. Peter A. Kraemer, Office of the Historian, U.S. Department of State
• Dr. Ali Riaz, Illinois State University
• Ambassador R. Nicholas Burns, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs
• Dr. Gary R. Hess, Bowling Green State University
• Dr. Sumit Ganguly, Indiana University
• Dr. Robert J. McMahon, The Ohio State University
• Dr. Imtiaz Ahmed, University of Dhaka
• Dr. Sarmila Bose, George Washington University
• F.S. Aijazuddin, OBE

Just a few who took part in the discussions on the 1971 war. They look pretty important to me, not like the quacks you keep quoting. All you do is quote journalists many of whom arent independent, they have vested interests. Why dont you get it through your heads, they have not done a head count, they are guessing, they cannot distinguish between Biharis and Bengalis and it was the Bengalis that slaughtered the Biharis not the Pakistan Army. I dont deny there were killing of innocents - it's a guerilla war and that is the nature of such. I also believe there might well have been an initial crackdown phase during which time atrocities were possibly committed like on the night of the 25th at Dhaka University. But some of your quotes say thousands were mown down in the first few days (ref 73). Apparently reference 73 are news reports!! You call news reports evidence????? They could have been written by a Bengali, even a member of Mukti Bahini!!!! Do you not know about impartiality?

[Hongkongfuey]

Office of the Historian
Bureau of Public Affairs
United States Department of State

May 6, 2005

Foreign Relations, 1969-1976, Volume XI, South Asia Crisis, 1971
Released by the Office of the Historian

Foreign Relations, 1969-1976, Volume XI, South Asia Crisis, 1971

(This is not an official statement of policy by the Department of State; it is intended only as a guide to the contents of this volume.)

Since 1861, the Department of State's documentary series Foreign Relations of the United States has constituted the official record of the foreign policy and diplomacy of the United States. Historians in the Office of the Historian collect, arrange, and annotate the principal documents comprising the record of American foreign policy. The standards for the preparation of the series and the general deadlines for its publication are established by the Foreign Relations of the United States statute of October 28, 1991 (22 USC 4351, et seq.). Volumes in the Foreign Relations series are published when all the necessary editing, declassification, and printing steps have been completed.

.....

The trigger for the crisis in 1971 in East Pakistan was the announcement by President Yahya Khan on March 1 that the scheduled meeting of the recently elected National Assembly would be postponed indefinitely. (2) The National Assembly was scheduled to draft a new constitution for Pakistan to mark an end to martial law government. Because of the overwhelming electoral success in East Pakistan of Bengali nationalists, led by Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and his Awami League, the constitution was also expected to reflect their demand for virtual autonomy for East Pakistan. The Consulate General in Dacca reported on March 2 that "It would be impossible to over-estimate the sense of anger, shock and frustration which has gripped the east wing" as a result of the announcement. (2) President Yahya's announcement was followed by demonstrations in East Pakistan, and on March 7 Mujibur Rahman called for a "peaceful non-cooperation" movement patterned on Mahatma Gandhi's passive resistance movement in India. (8) The martial law government responded by airlifting troops to Dacca to double the size of the 15,000-man garrison. Undaunted, Mujibur Rahman announced on March 15 that, on the basis of the December election, his party, the Awami League, was taking over the administration of East Pakistan. (9) On March 25, the army arrested Mujibur and moved to suppress what was viewed in Islamabad as a secessionist movement. (10, 11)

The initial reaction in Washington to the emerging crisis was to avoid involvement in the internal politics of Pakistan. When the National Security Council's (NSC) Senior Review Group members considered the situation on March 6 they agreed with Under Secretary of State U. Alexis Johnson that it called for "massive inaction" on the part of the United States. (6) That conclusion was confirmed on March 26 when the NSC's crisis management team, the Washington Special Actions Group (WSAG), considered the crisis for the first time. Kissinger led a discussion in which there was general agreement to maintain a hands-off policy toward what was viewed as a developing civil war. The United States did not want to be open to the charge that it had encouraged the break-up of Pakistan. (11)

In East Pakistan, the army began a brutal campaign of repression designed to cow the Bengali dissidents. The Consulate General's reports from Dacca were graphic and disturbing. On March 28 the report from Dacca began: "Here in Dacca we are mute and horrified witnesses to a reign of terror by the Pak military." During the following week, the Consulate General reported that the army was setting houses on fire and shooting people as they emerged from the burning buildings and that the army had killed a large number of unarmed students at Dacca University. (13) On March 28, Nixon and Kissinger discussed the reports of atrocities in East Pakistan in a telephone conversation. Nixon said: "I wouldn't put out a statement praising it, but we're not going to condemn it either." (13) In a subsequent conversation with Kissinger on March 30, Nixon said: "we should just stay out —like in Biafra, what the hell can we do?" (15)

On April 6, most members of the Consulate General in Dacca signed a dissent channel message to Washington. The message called upon the United States Government to condemn the "indiscriminate killing" of the populace of East Pakistan by the army. Condemnation of genocide, they argued, should outweigh a reluctance to intervene in the internal affairs of another country. Consul General Archer Blood endorsed the dissent. (19)
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/xi/45650.htm

72
In the context of briefing Nixon in advance of his meeting with the Indian Foreign Minister, Keating painted a grim picture of the situation in East Pakistan. He suggested that Nixon could put pressure on Pakistan to stop what he described as genocide in East Pakistan by withholding economic assistance

/4/ The Consulate General in Dacca reported on May 14 that it had received numerous reports that the Pakistani army was systematically searching out Hindus and killing them. (Telegram 1722 from Dacca; ibid., POL 23-9 PAK)

64. Memorandum of Conversation/1/
/1/ Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, Box 546, Country Files, Middle East, India, Vol. III, Sept 70-30 June 71. Secret; Nodis. Drafted by Saunders on June 4. The meeting was held in Kissinger's office at the White House. The time of the meeting is from Kissinger's appointment book. (Library of Congress, Manuscript Division, Kissinger Papers, Box 438, Miscellany, 1968-1976, Record of Schedule)

Washington, June 3, 1971, 4:20-4:50 p.m.

PARTICIPANTS
Kenneth Keating, US Ambassador to India
Henry A. Kissinger, Assistant to the President
Harold H. Saunders, NSC Staff

Ambassador Keating said that, apart from the humanitarian aspects of the problem and the four million refugees, he had wanted to talk about military and economic assistance to Pakistan. He said he felt that military aid is "just out of the question now while they are still killing in East Pakistan and refugees are fleeing across the border."

....Having said that, he felt that on the merits it is wrong to resume military assistance as long as the killing continues in East Pakistan. Dacca is reasonably quiet, although only half the normal inhabitants are there. The Pakistani army is now concentrating on the Hindu population. At first the refugees crossing into India were in the same proportion of Hindu and Muslim as in the whole East Pakistani population. Now, 90% are Hindus.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/xi/45604.htm

144. Minutes of Washington Special Actions Group Meeting/1/

Washington, September 8, 1971, 3:07-4:25 p.m.

/1/ Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, NSC Institutional Files (H-Files), Box H-115, WSAG Minutes, Originals, 1971. Secret. No drafting information appears on the source text. The meeting was held in the White House Situation Room. Another record of the meeting was prepared on September 13 by James Noyes (OASD/ISA). (Washington National Records Center, OSD Files, FRC 330 76 0197, Box 74, Pakistan 381 (Jan-Nov) 1971)

Mr. Williams: Yes-it's a battle for the life-line, with the guerrillas trying to cut the railroad and blow up the bridges. This will make the East Pakistanis dependent on water transport. In the north, the bands seem to be operating independently. To the south, there are bands of 3-600, well equipped and using sophisticated tactics. Their targets are transportation lines, bridges, police stations and the administrative structure generally. The first step in the communal violence may have been the killing by the Bangla Desh of the Urdu-speaking Bihari Minister. The counter-reaction when the Pak troops arrived led to the communal riots. The exact number of casualties is not known, but the deaths in the communal riots were probably in the thousands and in the later attacks on the Hindus, probably in the ten-thousands.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/xi/45607.htm

Yes yes, more selectivity. Archie Blood you quote quite a bit in there. It became known as the "Blood letters"

On April 6, most members of the Consulate General in Dacca signed a dissent channel message to Washington. The message called upon the United States Government to condemn the "indiscriminate killing" of the populace of East Pakistan by the army. Condemnation of genocide, they argued, should outweigh a reluctance to intervene in the internal affairs of another country.[/b] Consul General Archer Blood endorsed the dissent. (19)
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/xi/45650.htm

Guess what. Blood later retracted this claim of genocide that you have highlighted in red

US Consul-General Archer Blood revised his initial assessment as
civil war ensued: ". we realized that the term 'genocide' was not
appropriate to characterize all killings of Muslim Bengalis. Atrocities
were being committed on both sides .. it seemed to us that Army violence
was increasingly being used for military purposes." However, Blood still
felt the term 'genocide' could be applied to the targeting of Hindus.
(Blood, (2002), p. 216-217).
http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

Oh, now Archie Blood changes his statement from genocide to actually, ermmm, well, errrr, it wasnt genocide that was committed of the Muslims, only of the Hindus..So how did Archie Blood distinguish between Hindu killings and Muslim killings? Did he check their diks too?

There's no doubts some West Pakistani soldiers did target Bengali Hindus. You get hatists in every population. But citing Archie with a mind as changeable as the weather is not a good idea :)

[Jay]

Just a few who took part in the discussions on the 1971 war. They look pretty important to me, not like the quacks you keep quoting. All you do is quote journalists many of whom arent independent, they have vested interests.

Hey moron, all my quotes were indeed from that meeting and US Foreign policy archives. are you smoking crack? when did I keep quoting journos?

Why dont you get it through your heads, they have not done a head count, they are guessing, they cannot distinguish between Biharis and Bengalis and it was the Bengalis that slaughtered the Biharis not the Pakistan Army.

Moron, read over the report again. There is documentary evidence that Pakistani Army was systematically killing innocents. I believe in US Consular and foreign policy archives than your scholars, coz those were first hand reports received from US Consul office from Bangladesh.

But some of your quotes say thousands were mown down in the first few days (ref 73).

If you burnt down 25 blocks, then the numbers would indeed be in 1000's.

Apparently reference 73 are news reports!! You call news reports evidence????? They could have been written by a Bengali, even a member of Mukti Bahini!!!! Do you not know about impartiality?

So?? News reports are not sources?? They were news report presented in US Congress. Impartiality? Actually Nixon was supporting Pakistan all the way, so if its partial, it would be siding against Pakistan.

[Hongkongfuey]

If you consider Prof.Sharmila Bose as a source, then I wish to point out another scholar, Rounaq Jahan,Associate Research Scholar, Southern Asian Institute and a Prof in Columbia Univ.

Rounaq Jahan received a BA and an MA (1963) in Political Science from Dhaka University, Bangladesh. In 1968 she received an MA in Political Science from Harvard University, from where she also earned her PhD in 1970. From 1970 to 1993 she taught at Dhaka University, Bangladesh where she taught undergraduate and graduate courses on Comparative Politics, Political Development, and Research Methodology, as well as supervised MPhil and PhD theses. From 1973 to 1975 she chaired the Political Science Department at the University.

Massacare of hindu students in Jagannath Hall:
. I could see that the soldiers were searching for students with flashlights from room to room, were taking them near the Shahid Minar (Martyr's memorial) and then shooting them. Only the sound of gunfire and pleas of mercy filled the air. Sometimes the Pakistanis used mortars and were shelling the building. The tin sheds in front of assembly and some of the rooms in North Block were set on fire. ...

After some time about forty to fifty Pakistani soldiers came to the South Block and broke down the door of the dining room. The lights were turned on and they were firing at the students who took shelter in that room. ...When the soldiers came out they had Priyanath (the caretaker of the student dormitory) at gunpoint, and forced him to show the way through all the floors of the dormitory.

.As my companion and I were carrying the body of Sunil (our dormitory guard), we heard screams in female voices. We found that the women from the nearby slums were screaming as the soldiers were shooting at the janitors (the husbands of the women). I realized that our turn would come too as the Pakistanis started lining up those students who were before us, and were firing at them.

Horror Documentary
The film, lasting about 20 minutes, first shows small distant figures emerging from the hall carrying the corpses of what must be the students and professors massacred in Jagannath Hall. These are clearly civilian figures in lighter clothes and, at their back, seen strutting arrogantly even at that distance, are darker clad figures, the hoodlums of the Pakistan army. The bodies are laid down in neat, orderly rows by those forced to carry them at gun-point. Then the same procession troops back to the Hall. All this time, with no other sound, one hears innocent bird-song and a lazy cow is seen grazing on the university lawns. The same civilians come out again and the pile of bodies grows.

But after the third grisly trip, the action changes. After the corpses are laid on the ground, the people carrying them are lined up. One of them probably has a pathetic inkling of what is going to happen. He falls on his knees and clings to the legs of the nearest soldier, obviously pleading for mercy. But there is no mercy. One sees guns being pointed, one hears the crackle of gunfire and the lined up figures fall one by one, like the proverbial house of cards or, if you prefer, puppets in a children's film. At this stage, the bird-song suddenly stops. The lazy cow, with calf, careers wildly across the lawn and is joined by a whale herd of cows fleeing in panic.

But the last man is still clinging pathetically to the jack-boot of the soldier at the end of the row. The solider then lifts his shoulder at an angle, so that the gun points almost perpendicularly downwards to the man at his feet, and shoots him. The pleading hands unlink from the soldier's legs and another corpse joins the slumped bodies in a row, some piled on top of the very corpses they had to carry out at gunpoint, their own colleagues and friends. The soldiers prod each body with their rifles or bayonets to make sure that they are dead. A few who are still wriggling in their death agony are shot twice until they also stop wriggling.

[b]Our Mothers and Sisters[b/]

The following testimony is from M. Akhtaurzzaman Mondol's "Amader-Ma Bon" ("Our Mother and Sisters") which appears in Rashid Haider (Ed.) 1971: Terrible Experiences, p. 197. It was translated by Sohela Nazneen. Reprinted with permission.


But I still did not anticipate the terrible scene I was going to witness and we were heading toward east of Vurungamari to take up our positions. I was informed by wireless to go to the Circle Officer's office. After we reached the office, we caught glimpses of several young women through the windows of the second floor. The doors were locked. so we had to break them down. After breaking down the door of the room, where the women were kept, we were dumbfounded. We found four naked young women, who had been physically tortured, raped, and battered by the Pakistani soldiers. We immediately came out of the room and threw in four lungis [dresses] and four bedsheets for them to cover themselves. We tried to talk to them, but all of them were still in shock. One of them was six to seven months pregnant. One was a college student from Mymensingh. They were taken to India for medical treatment in a car owned by the Indian army. We found many dead bodies and skeletons in the bushes along the road. Many of the skeletons had long hair and had on torn saris and bangles on their hands. We found sixteen other women locked up in a room at Vurungamari High School. These women were brought in for the Pakistani soldiers from nearby villages. We found evidence in the rooms of the Circle Officers office which showed that these women were tied to the windowbars and were repeatedly raped by the Pakistani soldiers. The whole floor was covered with blood, torn pieces of clothing, and strands of long hair. ...

Read more gruesome eye witness stories here...
http://www.globalwebpost.com/genocid...ess/rounaq.htm

If this is not genocide, what is ?? huh??

Jay,

I realized you were not very bright a while back. But it is no good you typing all this stuff and removing all doubt of your lack of intellect.

You have quoted a report from a BENGALI (that's a native of Bangladesh). That is not an INDEPENDENT analysis.

On the other hand, the Bose report i quoted, is from a BENGALI as well, but she cannot be accused of bias because she concludes that all the accusations of mass rapings of her own people, the Bengalis, by the West Pakistani troops is false. Keyword here is NEUTRAL, or at least not to have your reports biased by nationality.

Rounaq Jahan received a BA and an MA (1963) in Political Science from Dhaka University, Bangladesh. In 1968 she received an MA in Political Science from Harvard University, from where she also earned her PhD in 1970. From 1970 to 1993 she taught at Dhaka University
http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/faculty/bios/rj15.html

[Jay]

Yes yes, more selectivity. Archie Blood you quote quite a bit in there. It became known as the "Blood letters"

Its just not Archie Blood. There are lots more. Yes, I posted selectivly, or else it would just be too huge.

[quote]Guess what. Blood later retracted this claim of genocide that you have highlighted in red
Doesnt matter. Him retracting his claims may be of political nature. Systematic killing of 300,000 or 3 Million people is termed genocide.

So how did Archie Blood distinguish between Hindu killings and Muslim killings? Did he check their diks too?

May be or may be not. Or it may be the same way that Sarmila Bosr calculated the number of deaths.

There's no doubts some West Pakistani soldiers did target Bengali Hindus. You get hatists in every population. But citing Archie with a mind as changeable as the weather is not a good idea

No, its not just Archie. There are lot more reports that says about systematic killings. Other than Archie's stet of mind, what else have you got to prove what he says is wrong??

[Jay]

Jay, I realized you were not very bright a while back. But it is no good you typing all this stuff and removing all doubt of your lack of intellect.

Yeah ok, @ss hole, you be the brightest north star. You already proved your brightness or lack of, in the LCA thread. Muhaahah...70%..that was funny!

You have quoted a report from a BENGALI (that's a native of Bangladesh). That is not an INDEPENDENT analysis.

On the other hand, the Bose report i quoted, is from a BENGALI as well, but she cannot be accused of bias because she concludes that all the accusations of mass rapings of her own people, the Bengalis, by the West Pakistani troops is false.

So if a Bengali, prolly a West Bengali says that Pakistani troops are innocent then its true. Incase if a bengali say against it, then its not neutral and partial? that one stupid logic. And for citing bengali sources, do you think Pakistani soldiers would ivite 100's of non bengalis and then mass rape in front of them??

Keyword here is NEUTRAL, or at least not to have your reports biased by nationality.

Nationality doesnt make a report partial. A lot of the amnesty reports are written by natives of that nation, does that make it partial??

Rounaq Jahan received a BA and an MA (1963) in Political Science from Dhaka University, Bangladesh. In 1968 she received an MA in Political Science from Harvard University, from where she also earned her PhD in 1970. From 1970 to 1993 she taught at Dhaka University http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/faculty/bios/rj15.html

Yeah so what, she was there during the GENOCIDE and she knows Bengali and she can very well conduct interviews with eye witnesses. That makes it even more authentic.

Now what about the cases of abortions quoted by Doctors and others?? Are they partial too?

So Robert Payne is a Bengali?? Brownmiller is also a Bengali??

[Guest]

jay and ray,
what are u guys trying to get out of this madrasa educated mulla who lost his intelligence the moment he joined madrasa.
I remember one poem that i read during my sanskrit class by batruhari, which goes like this
" one could take a peice of meat from a crcocdile's mouth but one can never satisfy a FOOL"
-raj

[lemontree]

some more from Bangladesh 1971.

[Hongkongfuey]

Originally Posted by Hongkongfuey
Just a few who took part in the discussions on the 1971 war. They look pretty important to me, not like the quacks you keep quoting. All you do is quote journalists many of whom arent independent, they have vested interests.
Hey moron, all my quotes were indeed from that meeting and US Foreign policy archives. are you smoking crack? when did I keep quoting journos?

Moron, read over the report again. There is documentary evidence that Pakistani Army was systematically killing innocents. I believe in US Consular and foreign policy archives than your scholars, coz those were first hand reports received from US Consul office from Bangladesh.

Which report? Can you show me one not written by a Bangladeshi, not written by an Indian, and not written by a journalist with a vested interest such as Aubrey Menon or Simon Dring? Just one would be a start. Archie Blood seemed to have changed his mind, and he was the one who was heading the campaign in 1971 to get Nixon's attention. Some other politicians relied on his reports, which he now says werent true. Just one independent, reliable, neutral observer would be a start, and then we can worry about the figures, but not some eagle that can see thousands of people mown down all over the place like they were all standing in line to be shot even though they were running away - You're totally confused on this.

Why dont you get it through your heads, they have not done a head count, they are guessing, they cannot distinguish between Biharis and Bengalis and it was the Bengalis that slaughtered the Biharis not the Pakistan Army.

Moron, read over the report again. There is documentary evidence that Pakistani Army was systematically killing innocents. I believe in US Consular and foreign policy archives than your scholars, coz those were first hand reports received from US Consul office from Bangladesh.

The US Consul-General WAS ARCHIE BLOOD!!!! How difficult is it to understand. Jezus H Christ.

The consulate occupied by a consul general
http://www.answers.com/topic/consulate-general

Someone rescue me, this is getting ridiculous, i feel like a teacher

But some of your quotes say thousands were mown down in the first few days (ref 73).

If you burnt down 25 blocks, then the numbers would indeed be in 1000's.

If you burnt down 25 blocks with people fleeing the scene as your quote says, you probably wouldnt have anybody remaining in the blocks. Would you remain in them while they're being torched? Dont answer that Jay..

Apparently reference 73 are news reports!! You call news reports evidence????? They could have been written by a Bengali, even a member of Mukti Bahini!!!! Do you not know about impartiality?

So?? News reports are not sources?? They were news report presented in US Congress. Impartiality? Actually Nixon was supporting Pakistan all the way, so if its partial, it would be siding against Pakistan.

Well news reports written by people about an event that happened to them are bound to be biased? It's a stretch of the imagination to see this, i know but try.

If country X invades country Y, do you think country Y is going to likely give a fair and balanced view of what country X is doing?

The last bit about Nixon makes no sense, though Nixon was supporting Pakistan. Nixon did not present reports to the US Senate you dolt!! DUhhh! I think this was the time when he described Indians as slimy, treacherous, the most goddam aggresive bastards in south asia, and i can see why.

[Hongkongfuey]

Jay, I realized you were not very bright a while back. But it is no good you typing all this stuff and removing all doubt of your lack of intellect.

Yeah ok, @ss hole, you be the brightest north star. You already proved your brightness or lack of, in the LCA thread. Muhaahah...70%..that was funny!

Take it up with defencetalk.com They quoted it. I am sure you can show them the light

You have quoted a report from a BENGALI (that's a native of Bangladesh). That is not an INDEPENDENT analysis.

On the other hand, the Bose report i quoted, is from a BENGALI as well, but she cannot be accused of bias because she concludes that all the accusations of mass rapings of her own people, the Bengalis, by the West Pakistani troops is false.

So if a Bengali, prolly a West Bengali says that Pakistani troops are innocent then its true. Incase if a bengali say against it, then its not neutral and partial? that one stupid logic. And for citing bengali sources, do you think Pakistani soldiers would ivite 100's of non bengalis and then mass rape in front of them??

You're a funny guy, so stupid, but funny. It goes in one ear and out the other. Talk about short memory span. It's as simple or as complicated as this, Jay. Bose is West Bengali, that makes her Indian. India fought against West Pakistan. She researched the war, presented her findings to a select committee of historians, even Bangladeshi historians that agreed their figure of 3 million was ridiculous (conveniently blaming it on a mistranslation of texts), and showed by a systematic analysis of case studies that there was no evidence of rapes committed by West Pakistani forces.

8.. No rape of women by Pakistan army found in any of the cases of
conflict
In all of the incidents involving the Pakistan army in the
case-studies, the armed forces were found not to have raped women. While
this cannot be extrapolated beyond the specific incidents in this study,
it is significant, as in many cases the allegation of rape was made along
with allegations of killing in prior verbal discussions or in some cases
even in written form in the Bengali literature. However, when Bengali
eye-witnesses, participants and survivors of the incidents were
interviewed they testified to the violence and killings, but also
testified that no rape had taken place.
http://www.drishtipat.org/1971/sarmila_paper.html

i'm not sure what's not getting through your skull here. Bose's survey was conducted in the last few years. They're based on interviews, visiting the sites, gathering data and then analyzing them. She has no reason whatsoever to favour the West Pakistani forces. She just found too many contradictions in the stories of people bent on trying to make a name for themselves, money, or tarnish images of others.

Keyword here is NEUTRAL, or at least not to have your reports biased by nationality.

Nationality doesnt make a report partial. A lot of the amnesty reports are written by natives of that nation, does that make it partial??

Difference is Amnesty is a reputed organization that will check the reports being made for factual incosistencies - it's their name at stake after all and that's why they're such a powerful organization. Usually they'll work in teams so there's not going to be much chance of them getting away with making things up unlike the lone riders from Bangladesh.

Rounaq Jahan received a BA and an MA (1963) in Political Science from Dhaka University, Bangladesh. In 1968 she received an MA in Political Science from Harvard University, from where she also earned her PhD in 1970. From 1970 to 1993 she taught at Dhaka University http://www.sipa.columbia.edu/faculty/bios/rj15.html

Yeah so what, she was there during the GENOCIDE and she knows Bengali and she can very well conduct interviews with eye witnesses. That makes it even more authentic.

LOL!!

Look at it like this. Let's say (God forbid) that your friend doesnt like someone. He invents a story about them, and portrays it as true to get back at them. Are you supposed to believe him.

I can see I'm wasting my time here

Now what about the cases of abortions quoted by Doctors and others?? Are they partial too?

So Robert Payne is a Bengali?? Brownmiller is also a Bengali??

I havent checked those two out, and I dont intend to waste more time doing it right now. But BrownMiller quotes Aubrey Menon, as do

Aubrey Menon, an Indian author, wrote in his book The Space Within the Heart about his study of the Upanisads:

[My study] was to prove an insight into the hoax that all of us accept as complete living... [I realized] my life had been the laborious construct of other people, some well-intentioned, some malign, some just interfering. It has been a life of emotion invented for me to feel. It has been life designed so that I should never be my own man. . . .”
http://www.timelessindia.us/chapter32.htm

I wouldnt say an Indian author's writings on the War were impartial. Another thing that has to be remembered is that the Pakistan Army had banned all reporters from Bangladesh during 1971 when this was occurring so Robert Payne et al had to have been working with the Mukti Bahini guerillas who no doubt would be more than willing to show them dead bodies even if they were Biharis. There is nothing solid in any of the things you quote in my opinion. Perhaps, Robert Payne. I'll see if i can find something about him later.

alright, i had a quick look for Robert Payne. This is what Robert Payne says in his book "Massacre"

President Yahya said, "Kill three million of them and the rest will eat out of our hands". (Robert Payne, Massacre, The Tragedy of Bangladesh and the Phenomenon of Mass Slaughter Throughout History; P50; New York, Macmillan, 1973)

So how did Robert Payne hear Yahya say this? Was Yahya in the habit of wanting to look evil in front of journalists. It just so happens that this figure of 3 million dead in this war is quoted by the Bengalis, and Indians in their medias as though it's Gospel. Coincidence or............????????? He's just trying to sell his book, and make it as sensationlist as possible is my guess.

[sparten]

30,000 men could not 3 million even if they had nothing else to do.

[Jay]

Which report? Can you show me one not written by a Bangladeshi, not written by an Indian, and not written by a journalist with a vested interest such as Aubrey Menon or Simon Dring?

It doesnt matter. Regardless of nationality, if the report has facts and pictures and eye witness reports, I would consider it as authentic. I cannot go and look for a Chinese or a Russian for these reports. Indians and Bangladeshis are eye witness to the event.

Just one would be a start. Archie Blood seemed to have changed his mind,

no, he didnt change his mind. He still said that Pakistani army are indeed killing Bengali muslims and vice versa and Bengali hindus.

and he was the one who was heading the campaign in 1971 to get Nixon's attention. Some other politicians relied on his reports, which he now says werent true.

No, none of those reports are dismissed. show me a something from the policy archives that says the reports were false. Indeed it was Kisinger, who tried to save Yahaya's a$$ hence downplayed Archie's reports.

Just one independent, reliable, neutral observer would be a start,

Yeah right, Pakistan invited neutral observers to see the carnage. what a load of BS. The Consul Gen and other members in the mission sent their reports. Thats as neutral as it gets, for christ sake, they are Americans.

and then we can worry about the figures, but not some eagle that can see thousands of people mown down all over the place like they were all standing in line to be shot even though they were running away - You're totally confused on this.

Yeah, thats how genocides happen. That why most historians equate this atrocity with Nanjing rape and the holocost.

The US Consul-General WAS ARCHIE BLOOD!!!! How difficult is it to understand. Jezus H Christ.
Someone rescue me, this is getting ridiculous, i feel like a teacher

Oh, now you are the teacher! Yikes, it aint a madrassah, so hold your horses.
I said the Consul, it includes the Consul as well as other supporting staff in the consulate/mission in Dhaka.

If you burnt down 25 blocks with people fleeing the scene as your quote says, you probably wouldnt have anybody remaining in the blocks. Would you remain in them while they're being torched? Dont answer that Jay..

Pakistani army torched the buildings. Do you have any proof that they didnt do it?? Who knows they would have had Pakistani soldiers with mortars and machine guns, to kill people fleeing from their homes. I'll put you inside a building, tie you down, secure the doors, and will set it on fire, lets see how you get out of it.

If country X invades country Y, do you think country Y is going to likely give a fair and balanced view of what country X is doing?

In that case, none of the Pakistani news articles from Balochistan is not fair and balanced??

The last bit about Nixon makes no sense, though Nixon was supporting Pakistan. Nixon did not present reports to the US Senate you dolt!! DUhhh!

Boo...who gets to appoint Ambassdors and Consuls?? You gotta empty space between yours ears or just faking it??

I think this was the time when he described Indians as slimy, treacherous, the most goddam aggresive bastards in south asia, and i can see why.

I can see why most people in the world call muslims as killers. They are the most aggressive bastards in the world.