Democracy in India Vs Communism in China

[Yusuf]

Is democracy in India hindering its growth? Its ability to take tough decisions of national importance?
The nuke deal is one example where because of our so called democracy, the deal is in the doldrums. No major decisions can be taken. Bureaucracy holds every decision/deal to ransom.
On the other hand China is cantering along in its progress. Its government is not answerable to anyone. And is also very nationalistic in its approach. Development at all cost is the mantra. That's the reason why they are making the biggest widest tallest etc in every field.

Members' take?

[xunil]

First, China is not Communism anymore. I think autocracy is more accurate. Second, democracy is not answer to everything. Talking about political system, I think there is more China can learn from India. What India can learn from China ? Maybe pragmatism.

[Bigfella]

Yusuf,

My two cents worth is that far from holding India back, democracy is what holds India together.

India & China are & have been very different places historically. The notion of a single national entity with a dictator at its head has a long history in China. Despite their different language groups Han Chinese share a sense of unified culture. I don't think this describes India.

If you want a comparison, look at Pakistan. Perhaps it would never have lasted as a unified state, but dictatorship doomed it to a violent split. Subsequent dictatorships in what remained Pakistan have probably fuelled divisions along religious & regional/ethnic lines. India has had its problems, but it has stayed in one piece, and at a MUCH lower cost than Pakistan paid for its breakup.

Think on it this way, what do you think the reaction of the various States with their different histories, religions, ethnicities & languages would have been to an extended period of dictatorship from New Delhi? Dictatorships are notoriously bad at managing diversity. How long do you think it would have been before individual states or groups of states would have begun agitating for greater autonomy? How long do you think it would have been before bloodshed? How many years of dictatorship would it take to pay for the costs of just one year of major civil upheaval?

I would argue that even 60 years after independence, India retians some of the fragility that it had at its birth. I doubt that it could survive a generation of dictatorship. India has corruption & inefficiency. It has problems. This is beyond doubt. So does China. I would argue, however, that the promises held out by dictatorship are largely illusory for most nations. The costs are often less obvious, but great. India gains so much more from democracy than it loses that the alternative is unthinkable.

[antimony]

Big Fella,

Spot on, India's cultural sibling is Pakistan and we only need to look at them to assure ourselves that we have gone down a better path politically.

India has enough ills that would have a free run if we have anything other than a democracy, I think we covered some of those topics in this thread:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sou...on-policy.html

Personally I would like to see more democracy in India, not less. By this I mean that citizens should be involved in active decision making, esp at the panchayat/block/sub-division/zilla levels, instead of just choosing the representatives, but that is another discussion.

[kuku]

Ya here we go, China is China and India is India.

If i knew the answers to these economic things, i would have been on rich SOB, with money for toilet paper.

oh well, that cant stop me from ranting.

The problem was and is (who knows might still be after a couple of years), that god damn protected economy and failed government planned everything.

Less socialist BS, creating conditions for people to do business is all that is
needed, take a look at the last 2 decades.
Plenty of people around who can take advantage of it and compete.

The government never saw the growth in IT sector or planned it, somehow they got the conditions better by just a bit after that damn economic crisis of the early 90s and the industry made a lot of money, had the government planned a IT revolution with a couple of big As@ government companies or public companies, it would have ended up like everything else the government started, in a mess.

They are in politics, had they been good at running the money, they would have made money in business, so they should just back off, create the conditions, make the roads, make the bridges, have a economic policy that encourages people to earn money etc. etc. and be comfertable with people making money.


Just look at how the whole mess started, the governments started nationalising everything killing off everyone capable of doing business and earning good honest money, starting this whole mess of a system that created government and public companies.

I could understand the reason behind protecting the market from outside forces, coming in flush with cash and technology, however the hardest thing to understand is protecting a market from itself???

One would think that one of the biggest protests should have been to get more transparency and accountability inside all the political and government offices, however guess what, they were not, and it took a long time before something as essential as the right to information act came into being, i hope it is a step in the right direction and people remember what is important.

Why is that not happening, well someones got to start a process to implement it. Cant just sit at home earn the monthly income, make babies and fade away, well we can do that, however if thats all we do no point crying about anything.


And for gods sake, stop *****ing about, India could have been a lot better, if we gave a shi#t, we have to wake up and realize that that document starts with

"we the people of India.......

not

"us the government and rulers of India.....

So get up and make a issue important for yourself, participate, vote, protest.......

I want the age of legally drinking down to 18 from 25, and will protest by giving evey 18 year old kid a pack of beers.
:))

And attend every protest, meeting in support of the "right for information" even if they feel a little gay ( i mean lighting up candles and taking a stroll holding hands, come on)....

blah.. blah....

[bengalraider]

democracy works best when business is left free to expand India can see the results of letting the airlines, IT and automotive sector spread their wings all we need to do is open defense to business as well and soon we'll have companies that can give NORINCO a run for their money we are in the nascent stages of the same with the large no. of private players opening large defense related businesses.as for democracy vs communism i think the break-up of the soviet union ended that debate for good , bottomline is that well managed democracy does leaps and bounds better than communism ......now only if we could get a well managed government.

[antimony]

Ya here we go, China is China and India is India.

If i knew the answers to these economic things, i would have been on rich SOB, with money for toilet paper.

oh well, that cant stop me from ranting.

The problem was and is (who knows might still be after a couple of years), that god damn protected economy and failed government planned everything.

Less socialist BS, creating conditions for people to do business is all that is
needed, take a look at the last 2 decades.
Plenty of people around who can take advantage of it and compete.

The government never saw the growth in IT sector or planned it, somehow they got the conditions better by just a bit after that damn economic crisis of the early 90s and the industry made a lot of money, had the government planned a IT revolution with a couple of big As@ government companies or public companies, it would have ended up like everything else the government started, in a mess.

They are in politics, had they been good at running the money, they would have made money in business, so they should just back off, create the conditions, make the roads, make the bridges, have a economic policy that encourages people to earn money etc. etc. and be comfertable with people making money.


Just look at how the whole mess started, the governments started nationalising everything killing off everyone capable of doing business and earning good honest money, starting this whole mess of a system that created government and public companies.

I could understand the reason behind protecting the market from outside forces, coming in flush with cash and technology, however the hardest thing to understand is protecting a market from itself???

One would think that one of the biggest protests should have been to get more transparency and accountability inside all the political and government offices, however guess what, they were not, and it took a long time before something as essential as the right to information act came into being, i hope it is a step in the right direction and people remember what is important.

Why is that not happening, well someones got to start a process to implement it. Cant just sit at home earn the monthly income, make babies and fade away, well we can do that, however if thats all we do no point crying about anything.


And for gods sake, stop *****ing about, India could have been a lot better, if we gave a shi#t, we have to wake up and realize that that document starts with

"we the people of India.......

not

"us the government and rulers of India.....

So get up and make a issue important for yourself, participate, vote, protest.......

I want the age of legally drinking down to 18 from 25, and will protest by giving evey 18 year old kid a pack of beers.
:))

And attend every protest, meeting in support of the "right for information" even if they feel a little gay ( i mean lighting up candles and taking a stroll holding hands, come on)....

blah.. blah....

you seem to be in a foul mood today

[bolo121]

Well damn, kuku just used up all the points i was going to make.

[Ray]

First, China is not Communism anymore. I think autocracy is more accurate. Second, democracy is not answer to everything. Talking about political system, I think there is more China can learn from India. What India can learn from China ? Maybe pragmatism.

Xunil,

China is still Communist in practice. Its economy is changing to a mixed model and that is the difference. The politics continue to be totalitarian and not democratic.

Democracy is not an answer to a successful country. In fact, it is chaotic. However, it has a silver lining, in that the individual and his opinion matters. At least, he has the option to throw out the govt that does not work! I concede that is no panacea, but then it gives a warm feeling.

If you have noticed, whenever Pakistan has been under a military dictatorship, its economy has soared. Likewise, China has been able to achieve what it has, all because it was totalitarian. If it were a democracy, it would have been a very low rated third world country. Today, because of draconian powers of your govt, it is a success story, even if the people are not free in the western sense. China is fortunate that it has been able to accept such draconian rule because of the age old theory of Legalism and Confuciusism.

The day China is a democracy, it will be as good or as bad as any other Asian country including India. You will bumble along as we do in India.

[antimony]

Xunil,

China is still Communist in practice. Its economy is changing to a mixed model and that is the difference. The politics continue to be totalitarian and not democratic.

Democracy is not an answer to a successful country. In fact, it is chaotic. However, it has a silver lining, in that the individual and his opinion matters. At least, he has the option to throw out the govt that does not work! I concede that is no panacea, but then it gives a warm feeling.

If you have noticed, whenever Pakistan has been under a military dictatorship, its economy has soared. Likewise, China has been able to achieve what it has, all because it was totalitarian. If it were a democracy, it would have been a very low rated third world country. Today, because of draconian powers of your govt, it is a success story, even if the people are not free in the western sense. China is fortunate that it has been able to accept such draconian rule because of the age old theory of Legalism and Confuciusism.

The day China is a democracy, it will be as good or as bad as any other Asian country including India. You will bumble along as we do in India.

Brig. Ray Sir,

Assuming that you are drawing a Cause->Effect analysis poiting to Dictatrship->prosperity, I will have to disagree with you. In a country as fractious as ours, there is no guarantee that a dictatorship will work any better. In fact, I must say that I would be very uncomfortable if I have people like Devi Lal/ Mulayam/ Narendra Modi/ Thakrey at the top without having the ability to take them out.

Whatever Pakistan's successes may or may ot have ben, they certainly have not succeeded to put a long term vision in place. As for China, you know the differences between their society and ours more than I do.

In my opinion India needs massive investments in social infrastructure, and that comes from more, not less, involvement of people at grassroots decision making. For e.g., I would like to think that peopl should take more initiatives at the panchayat/ block level regarding schools, roads, utilities etc. instead of depending on "Central" plans.

That does not mean no role for the government, they still need to take care of large scale infrastructure and other issues, but it definitely would make for a better societies if citizens are actively involved in running them

[Blademaster]

I would be extremely comfortable with Modi at the helm. Look at Gujarat. It is booming at full speed under Modi's control at the helm.

[Tronic]

I would be extremely comfortable with Modi at the helm. Look at Gujarat. It is booming at full speed under Modi's control at the helm.

Hitesh, you must also realize, not all are you. Modi doesn't have the best of image with a lot of people. And if my power to vote and topple the leaders I dislike is taken away from me, there would definetly be a problem. Similarly, you may not get a leader that you like leading you. What do you do then?

[antimony]

I would be extremely comfortable with Modi at the helm. Look at Gujarat. It is booming at full speed under Modi's control at the helm.

Pre-WW2 Germany also "boomed" under Hitler, don't think the Jews were too happy though. By the way, they could not remove him either...

[Xiaohaha]

Pre-WW2 Germany also "boomed" under Hitler, don't think the Jews were too happy though. By the way, they could not remove him either...

Yes, but Germany was democratic and- Hitler *was* elected by direct vote, I believe.

Hitler's rise to power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Zeng]

We argued a lot about the political systems of China and India. Personally, I consider India’s democratic system although still has room to improve but is overall a success for India. It could provide China with lot of good lessons.

From my limited knowledge about India, it seems that India has a lot more religious and cultural divisions than China in India's recent history. Just keeping such a country together is already a big challenge, but India has achieved a lot more.

I believe that the religious tension, caste tension and racial tension in India may still exist but they are getting increasingly alleviated through your democratic process. It is a remarkable achievement for India in just 60 years after your independence. To solve those problems left from your centuries of history is by no means an easy task. We admire those India’s achievements.

Next, I want to see that India can develop faster and smoother without causing huge rich-poor cleavage, environmental damage and social instability because your people are empowered by the democracy to force your government to pay more attentions on those issues. Then, it will put lot of pressure on China to make political reform in a faster pace.

I am not sure if Pakistan is a very good comparison to India either. From Pakistan’s point of view, they have been constantly threatened by external force for their very existence. The military dictatorship in emergency situations like what Pakistan faced in their recent history might not be considered to be a very bad choice comparing to a corrupted immature democratic system at that time. How to make smooth transition back to normal after the emergency situations past will become a challenge for Pakistan.

Several months ago, Zraver predicted that Pakistan will fall into a 3-way civil war very soon. But I think that he missed the factor of India. As long as India's threat exist, major part of the Pakistani population will try find a way to compromise with each other in front of their common threat. India put Pakistan through some difficult time. Now, ironically, comparing to US and China, I think that India will probably play a larger role to help Pakistanis to unite to overcome their problems.

Similar to the situation of Pakistan, a little hostile attitude from outside of the world toward China on the Tibet and Xinjiang issues will also help Chinese to unite to overcome our immediate problems.