Was Vietnam an American victory?

[Oscar]

Oh come on, there is NO WAY whatsoever the Americans could ever be responsible for that butcher's bill. That is Khmer Rouge sole responsibility. No one else's.

The coup that ousted Sihanouk created a huge mess in a country as traditionnalist as Cambodia. The king was a living God. And the Khmer rouge were a bizarre specie of "Hitler meets Mao".

That's the nationalist side of this movement that promised to oust the Americans and the Vietnamese that gave them credibility among the Cambodians.The genocide occured because of the Vietnam war. So the responsibility is shared with the Vietcong.

[Oscar]

That still does not mean the Americans lined up those 1.3 million to be shot.

Quick question. What would've happened had you won DBP? It was an all or nothing battle for the Viet-minh. They had nothing left.

We would have won nothing. We were busy negociating our departure with the viet cong during dien bien phu

[Officer of Engineers]

You're mixing up a lot of groups. The VC was only a name after Tet. The NVA took over operations after that. But even if you blame Hanoi, they were the ones who finally stopped the butchering. They invaded Cambodia.

What about the Chinese? They were the ones giving Pol Pot and gang his guns. Hell, they even went to punish Vietnam for invading Cambodia.

In the final analysis, it was Pol Pot and his group who did that butchering. Nobody else. Nobody was lining his victims for him. He had to go out and do that himself. Nobody was forcing him to shoot his victims. He was the one doing that. All by himself.

[Oscar]

The khmer rouge don't come out of nowhere. Had Sihanouk stayed in power they would still be in their jungle. But the king wanted to be neutral in the vietnam war even if the north vietnamese and the "south vietnamese resistance" , used the cambodian territory.

The coup that overthrowed him was made by pro-american officers. That's what everyone saw. Maybe they received some help of the Americans maybe not but that's not the question. The rural population was deeply loyal to his king and they felt disoriented, and the only "national force" that could chase the new regime which was viewed as American-influenced was the Khmer rouge. At the beginning it was only a maoist guerilla group numbering no more than a few dozens people, they swelled after the overthrowing of Sihanouk.

[Oscar]

And I'm not saying the Khmer rouge were the allies of North Vietnam. It would be like saying Iran and Bin Laden are buddies.

[Officer of Engineers]

Chinese uniforms. Chinese weapons. Chinese advisors. Chinese money. Chinese troops. Chinese vengeance. Let me know when you get the hint. Chinese support. Chinese UN veto. Chinese punitive war. Chinese Special Forces ...

[Oscar]

Chinese uniforms. Chinese weapons. Chinese advisors. Chinese money. Chinese troops. Chinese vengeance. Let me know when you get the hint. Chinese support. Chinese UN veto. Chinese punitive war. Chinese Special Forces ...

That's right and the enemy of my enemy is my friend too. So you were on the wrong side when the vietnamese invaded Kampuchea to oust Pol pot.

[Officer of Engineers]

Me? I wore a Canadian uniform.

But the point remains that you have to go through a lot of others before you can lay the Pol Pot at the foot of the Americans, if ever.

[Oscar]

You lost not only South Vietnam but Laos and Cambodia too in 1975. For the latter your meddling in its internal affairs and then your departure triggered the rise of the khmer rouge and the genocide that followed (1.3 million murdered people cannot be forgotten so easily) .

That was my first post. I wrote that the Americans created a mess in Cambodia and then left. The power vacuum that followed gave a chance for the Khmer rouge to emerge.

And the reason why I typed this comment was that I found a thread with people discussing the aftermath of vietnam, and the consequences that resulted while completely forgetting what happened to the Cambodians after the retreat of the US army.

[S2]

Sihanouk And the NVA

How is it that Sihanouk permitted use of both the Cambodian border as sanctuary as well as the shipments of weapons and other supplies through Sihanoukville port?

How nice that Sihanouk wanted neutrality. The reality was quite different long before Lon Nol took power.

Haven't you spent enough on a Sorbonne education? When shall it begin showing here?

[Officer of Engineers]

And the reason why I typed this comment was that I found a thread with people discussing the aftermath of vietnam, and the consequences that resulted while completely forgetting what happened to the Cambodians after the retreat of the US army.

But the USArmy retreat did NOT trigger the Khmer Rouge. Cambodian neutrality guaranteed that the Khmer Rouge had no interference with their operations. They were going to win with or without the American "wink-wink", if it ever existed. The Chinese saw to it.

[Oscar]

First, Cambodia was a little kingdom and didn't want to choose sides between the USSR and the USA because Sihanouk thought (rightly) that his country could only lose in this fight. But I know it's the last of your worry S-2, because you're either with us or you're against us . That's your favorite motto, I presume?

And Sihanouk didn't authorize the smuggling of arms through his territory he was just trying to save his throne for him it was the least bad solution. He simply knew if he had taken measures against the vietnamese he would be considered an enemy by the soviets.

[Officer of Engineers]

First, Cambodia was a little kingdom and didn't want to choose sides between the USSR and the USA because Sihanouk thought (rightly) that his country could only lose in this fight. But I know it's the last of your worry S-2, because you're either with us or you're against us . That's your favorite motto, I presume?

And Sihanouk didn't authorize the smuggling of arms through his territory he was just trying to save his throne for him it was the least bad solution. He simply knew if he had taken measures against the vietnamese he would be considered an enemy by the soviets.

And that shows that you know very little of the situation. You're missing the most important power in the region - China. The Sino-Soviet split had already occurred forcing the communist world to choose sides and the Great Prolitereat Cultural Revolution had already ripped apart China's sanity and was exported to the world, including the Khmer Rouge. It was Peking, not Moscow, and certainly nothing to do with Washington, that brought Pol Pot to power.

[troung]

The coup that ousted Sihanouk created a huge mess in a country as traditionnalist as Cambodia. The king was a living God. And the Khmer rouge were a bizarre specie of "Hitler meets Mao".First, Cambodia was a little kingdom and didn't want to choose sides between the USSR and the USA because Sihanouk thought (rightly) that his country could only lose in this fight. But I know it's the last of your worry S-2, because you're either with us or you're against us . That's your favorite motto, I presume?

BS, Sihanouk supported the Khmer Rouge after his overthrow.

And I'm not saying the Khmer rouge were the allies of North Vietnam. It would be like saying Iran and Bin Laden are buddies.That's right and the enemy of my enemy is my friend too. So you were on the wrong side when the vietnamese invaded Kampuchea to oust Pol pot.

China and Sihanouk along with the Khmer Rouge themselves get credit for the Khmer Rouge.

[Oscar]

And that shows that you know very little of the situation. You're missing the most important power in the region - China. The Sino-Soviet split had already occurred forcing the communist world to choose sides and the Great Prolitereat Cultural Revolution had already ripped apart China's sanity and was exported to the world, including the Khmer Rouge. It was Peking, not Moscow, and certainly nothing to do with Washington, that brought Pol Pot to power.

There was a united URSS-China front against the US in Vietnam because both wanted them out of the peninsula for different reasons. The same for Cuba btw.

Mao forged an alliance with the US in 1972 when he was sure that the US was leaving Vietnam and realised that after this war the USSR would become a greater threat to China with the brejnev doctrine

I was not talking of the Khmer rouge in my previous posts. But basically the vietnamese chose the russian camp because they didn't want to be a satellite of the Chinese and the Cambodians (Sihanouk and the Khmer) chose the chinese camp because they didn't want to fall into Vietnam's zone of influence.

But against the US they (Vietnam, China, USSR) closed the ranks. That's why Kissinger advised Nixon to pull out of Vietnam because that would inevitably break the communist camp. And that's what happened.

Back to the Khmer rouge: only one Maoist guerilla group succeeded in taking power, among all the Maoist groups who got subsidies by China in the world . Guess where?
Guess why?

But the Khmer rouge once in power were no more puppets in the hands of Mao because they were not only maoist they were nazis too. These guys were obsessed by the purity of the Khmer race, deeply nationalist and completely paranoid about any sort of foreign interferences. They didn't obey Peking's orders they did it all by themselves so it's not the Chinese. But they were backed by Mao (and tacitely by the US) to counter the Vietnamese-soviet axis after 1975.