The illusion of the IDf dependence on America.

[Stan187]

well, im 19.5. i was a combat soldier in the israeli artillery force, and now im a programmer(in the army).

And as a tothan, what kind of weapons system did you work with? I'm pretty sure the most common models are the Doher and the Menatetz, where do you think those came from, buddy?

[lwarmonger]

I'd say that sentiment is pretty extreme.

Not at all. In what way have they helped American policy in the Middle East? In what way have they been a dependable ally?

Note, I say this having family over there (my great aunt married a jewish man from Israel, and their daughter married an Israeli and lives on a kibbutz about 5 kilometers from the Lebanese border) and two cousins who are in the IDF in their active duty period. I also used to be quite in favor of American support for Israel, as they are the only real democracy and viable nation state in the area... but that being said they've got to be made to toe the line. Our support for them shouldn't be open ended, and the billions of tax dollars we spend over there should net some kind of return for the United States.

So I have got to ask you (because I honestly don't see it), how is Israel being a good ally for the United States, and in what way are we benefiting from the billions of dollars we give out in aid?

[Stan187]

Not at all. In what way have they helped American policy in the Middle East? In what way have they been a dependable ally?

Note, I say this having family over there (my great aunt married a jewish man from Israel, and their daughter married an Israeli and lives on a kibbutz about 5 kilometers from the Lebanese border) and two cousins who are in the IDF in their active duty period. I also used to be quite in favor of American support for Israel, as they are the only real democracy and viable nation state in the area... but that being said they've got to be made to toe the line. Our support for them shouldn't be open ended, and the billions of tax dollars we spend over there should net some kind of return for the United States.

So I have got to ask you (because I honestly don't see it), how is Israel being a good ally for the United States, and in what way are we benefiting from the billions of dollars we give out in aid?

Plenty of good trade in high technology for starts. Not to mention all the data that we get since they basically test out a lot of weapons systems for us to improve them without actually having to be in direct conflict. Obviously that's less of a payoff now that we're in Iraq, but we're not always going to be embroiled in a conflict. Support for Israel is used by the United States as a bargaining chips against some Arab regimes, saying toe the the line or we'll let the Israelis have a free hand with you. Plus, a lot the military equipment that the aid is used to acquire isn't brand new, and frees up room for new equipment in our stocks.

[troung]

Plenty of good trade in high technology for starts.

I'm sure the Chinese are happy with that.

Support for Israel is used by the United States as a bargaining chips against some Arab regimes, saying toe the the line or we'll let the Israelis have a free hand with you.

We are the least popular nation in that part of the world - thanks to no small part our special friend.

Plus, a lot the military equipment that the aid is used to acquire isn't brand new, and frees up room for new equipment in our stocks.

So we give it away at tax payer expense? And then use taxpayer money to give away newly built equipment.

==============
We are hitched to a corpse at best.

We give them money and diplomatic support and in return they cripple or image in the region and sell our technology to our enemies.

[lwarmonger]

Yeah! What troung said!

[Stan187]

And where exactly where we getting urban warfare advice from before the invasion of Iraq? Who did a lot of soldiers cross train with?

The deal with China was stopped at the insistance of the US, btw.

I haven't seen you complain about the massive amount of aid that we give to Egypt each year. Or all the other countries to which we give away tons of money.

We are hated for many reasons in that region, one of which is supporting Israel. Should we support Syria instead, maybe try to win a popularity contest or two?

[Officer of Engineers]

And where exactly where we getting urban warfare advice from before the invasion of Iraq? Who did a lot of soldiers cross train with?

Stan,

Not discounting Israeli expertise (they have a lot) but do we go over there to learn or do they come over here to teach? And there is a reason why this is so.

[troung]

And where exactly where we getting urban warfare advice from before the invasion of Iraq? Who did a lot of soldiers cross train with?

We could have looked at numerous urban campaigns - even then that doesn't add up to a payback for 3 billion a year for two decades and the destruction of our reputation in that part of the world, the last one is of course linked to them having urban experience against the Palestinians and doing so on the tax payers dime.

Doesn't seem like the scales balance.

The deal with China was stopped at the insistance of the US, btw.

But yet first off the government had to threaten to cut off aid, and BTW the PL-8/PL-9 is Israeli. And other equipment has been sold as well to our enemy China by our supposed ally Israel. There was the Phalcon deal under Clinton which our government had to stop and then the Harpy's under Bush. And IIRC it was a Hapry refurbishment/upgrade as they sold them weapons which will be used against us in a time of war and then the pieces of **** wanted to upgrade them with American tech.

They are not our ally.

I haven't seen you complain about the massive amount of aid that we give to Egypt each year. Or all the other countries to which we give away tons of money.

We should cut that as well. It is linked to Israeli aid - of course Egyptian aid hasn't seemed to give us the same black eye; something to do with them not bombing Arabs and being in occupation of Palestine I think. But hey save the American taxpayer billions while we look to be walking into a recession and have ran deficits for years.

We are hated for many reasons in that region, one of which is supporting Israel. Should we support Syria instead, maybe try to win a popularity contest or two?

Yes we should deal with Syria in an open way. Why not they did sent troops to ODS .

[lwarmonger]

And where exactly where we getting urban warfare advice from before the invasion of Iraq? Who did a lot of soldiers cross train with?

That is worth billions each year and the alienation of the entire Muslim world?

The deal with China was stopped at the insistance of the US, btw.

Shouldn't have started in the first place.

I haven't seen you complain about the massive amount of aid that we give to Egypt each year. Or all the other countries to which we give away tons of money.

That foreign aid to Egypt is the result of the Camp David Accords... so it is indirectly tied to Israel. And the amount of assistance we give to Egypt is substantially less than what we give to Israel, who is our largest foriegn aid recipient (if I recall correctly to the tune of 3 billion dollars).

We are hated for many reasons in that region, one of which is supporting Israel. Should we support Syria instead, maybe try to win a popularity contest or two?

We supported the Shah of Iran, we support the Pakistani military dictatorship, why not Syria? If we weren't pro-Israel for the past 50 years or so than they probably wouldn't be anti-US today.

[lwarmonger]

Look, something you have got to understand is that I think Israel is the best nation state in the region... but if they want our help they have to take our advice. Period. American aid comes with strings attached for everyone else, and the only reason it doesn't with Israel is because they influence our domestic political process with a powerful lobby.

[Stan187]

Stan,

Not discounting Israeli expertise (they have a lot) but do we go over there to learn or do they come over here to teach? And there is a reason why this is so.

Sir, I'm referring specifically to the Israeli experience in Jenin and the lessons of which were incorporated into training up for the invasion of Iraq. I'm not sure what you're reffering to, however.

[Stan187]

Look, something you have got to understand is that I think Israel is the best nation state in the region... but if they want our help they have to take our advice. Period. American aid comes with strings attached for everyone else, and the only reason it doesn't with Israel is because they influence our domestic political process with a powerful lobby.

They don't take our advice?

[Stan187]

We should cut that as well. It is linked to Israeli aid - of course Egyptian aid hasn't seemed to give us the same black eye; something to do with them not bombing Arabs and being in occupation of Palestine I think. But hey save the American taxpayer billions while we look to be walking into a recession and have ran deficits for years.


Yes we should deal with Syria in an open way. Why not they did sent troops to ODS .

Yeah its cool let's support all of the dictators. Hooray, what a foreign policy! Troung for President

[Officer of Engineers]

Sir, I'm referring specifically to the Israeli experience in Jenin and the lessons of which were incorporated into training up for the invasion of Iraq. I'm not sure what you're reffering to, however.

Israeli military personnel often come over to the West on exchange. We don't send battalions or companies over to their facilities.

As far as Jenin is concerned, I argue that Grozny had a bigger impact on our thinking.

[Stan187]

That is worth billions each year and the alienation of the entire Muslim world?

As I've mentioned a few times previously, support for Israel is not the only reason we're not liked in the Muslim world. And either way, I could care less what they think, lest we start asking them every time we wish to make a policy decision. We're not France ok, and thank goodness for that.

Shouldn't have started in the first place.

Agreed.

That foreign aid to Egypt is the result of the Camp David Accords... so it is indirectly tied to Israel. And the amount of assistance we give to Egypt is substantially less than what we give to Israel, who is our largest foriegn aid recipient (if I recall correctly to the tune of 3 billion dollars).

Egypt receives $1.3 billion in military aid and something like $0.8 billion in economic aid. That's over $2 billion, not that far behind. As far the Camp David Accords, the US pushed for those more so than Israel did, so it is more our fault that we're such a cash cow, we did not have to push through and agree to all of this.

We supported the Shah of Iran, we support the Pakistani military dictatorship, why not Syria? If we weren't pro-Israel for the past 50 years or so than they probably wouldn't be anti-US today.
Are you going to present something that would prove your point that they wouldn't be so anti-US? Or is your word divine?

.