Pakistani soldier training vs. Indias, and Chinas

[Kontakt Era]

Hi again guys, im that kid who likes to talk to you peoples. :P I just wanted to know how good Pakistani training compares to India's training of men. It just has to be a general answer, if you want. I also want to know how China keeps up and supports its massive army on only 65 billion dollar budget. How good is the quality of their weapons and training of soldiers in general?

[Tronic]

Hi again guys, im that kid who likes to talk to you peoples. :P I just wanted to know how good Pakistani training compares to India's training of men. It just has to be a general answer, if you want. I also want to know how China keeps up and supports its massive army on only 65 billion dollar budget. How good is the quality of their weapons and training of soldiers in general?

Honestly, I don't know the training difference between Indian and Pakistani Soldiers but I do know that Indian troops are equipped with slightly better equipement. Indian soldiers also have more experience by fighting monkeys with ak's in Kashmir.

And for China... I believe China was to reduce their army a bit to modernize their army by using the money to buy and maintain better weapons than feeding more soldiers.

[Kontakt Era]

What do u mean by fighting monkeys? Oh yeah, I always thought that the average Chinese infantry soldier had horrible training, and equipment came in the masses, but werent too great. Is that true? i just heard that from Indian soldiers, most of them are officers, but maybe they are just mouthing of cause they are Indians.

[Tronic]

what i mean by fighting monkeys, is that there are enough terrorists running around in Kashmir to be used as target practise. :)

[Kontakt Era]

Oh ok lol. Is India's army good in ur opinion?

[Tronic]

well, depends who you compare them too. The Indian Army is good at homeland defense. Can't say much about their offensive abilities though. India happens to be a very large contibuter to the U.N. You should do some research on the incidents that happened in Sierra Leone in 2000 and the parts that the British and the Indian soldiers played. Don't know if that would count as an offensive capability but once you read about it you can judge for yourself.

[RepublicanGuard]

The Indian Military has beefed up quite a bit since the early 90's when the computer boom started fueling india's economy and employing their people by the masses.

In general, they are equipped with a mix of western and russian tech but most is russian made. They have just recently ordered a massive amount of new Russian T-90 MBTs and adopted them as their standard MBT and have a liscence to produce the T-90 domestically. ( Hint: they use ACTUAL T-90s, not the export versions that dont come with reactive armor stock. The Iraqis for example had severely downgraded T-72s without the electronic targeting system. The Iraqi T-72's armor was also severely downgraded from the Soviet version. )

The IAF uses the latest russian versions of the Mig-29 Fulcrum ( to kill pakistani F-16s with ease ) but almost all of their fighter purchases have been with the Sukhoi ordering a considerable amount of SU-30s and also domestically producing them.

Due to the recent economic boom and massive military buildup in India, it would be very logical that the training of indian troops has stepped up quite a bit as well ( Not that they where bad soldiers to begin with ).

In short, India, even though they are a rather peaceful nation, can fight a war with any of its neighbors ( notably pakistan ) and win on any given day.

[ajaybhutani]

The Indian Military has beefed up quite a bit since the early 90's when the computer boom started fueling india's economy and employing their people by the masses.

In general, they are equipped with a mix of western and russian tech but most is russian made. They have just recently ordered a massive amount of new Russian T-90 MBTs and adopted them as their standard MBT and have a liscence to produce the T-90 domestically. ( Hint: they use ACTUAL T-90s, not the export versions that dont come with reactive armor stock. The Iraqis for example had severely downgraded T-72s without the electronic targeting system. The Iraqi T-72's armor was also severely downgraded from the Soviet version. )

The IAF uses the latest russian versions of the Mig-29 Fulcrum ( to kill pakistani F-16s with ease ) but almost all of their fighter purchases have been with the Sukhoi ordering a considerable amount of SU-30s and also domestically producing them.

Due to the recent economic boom and massive military buildup in India, it would be very logical that the training of indian troops has stepped up quite a bit as well ( Not that they where bad soldiers to begin with ).

In short, India, even though they are a rather peaceful nation, can fight a war with any of its neighbors ( notably pakistan ) and win on any given day.

well it wont be a good position with china. It will be a massacare with none winning.

[Hawk_eye]

Hi again guys, im that kid who likes to talk to you peoples. :P I just wanted to know how good Pakistani training compares to India's training of men. It just has to be a general answer, if you want. I also want to know how China keeps up and supports its massive army on only 65 billion dollar budget. How good is the quality of their weapons and training of soldiers in general?

Hmm, intresting. Actually if we are to look at Pakistan and India, Pakistani and Indiani army training is based on the old system left by the British, if we look at Pakistani officers who go abroad alone, the majority train at Sandhurst UK, while a few will goto US Training Bases such as fort bliss texas.

If we look an troop training, from what i have seen this is more than satisfactory, however those indian snipers sure have earned a reputation.

Special forces: In the true sense of the word, well pakistan has a small unit known as the Special Service Group (Naval/Army) and india has quite a few, most notably the Para's and the blackcat's.

Recently, the old khaki starched uniform is starting to be replaced with a standard Khaki/Sand BDU(Battle Dress Unifrom), this is an indication that we are now moving away from the old system and embracing the more modern and workmen like US system. The same can be said for training. While i am unaware of the actual training methods of the indian army apart from what i have read on various sites, it is quite similar.

Now coming to the Chinese Military, although on a general level one may mock the Chinese Army, one thing i can say for certian, is that they know how to hold their ground. :)China and Pakistan recently carried out joint anti-terror exercises, and according to what i have been told the chinese were very impressive.

As for their equipment, it looks very professional to me, plus China makes almost everything it needs in house, thus keeping costs low and supply lines constant, in closing i would like to add that one must not dismiss, what is undoubtly the worlds largest growing super power so easily.

[Anoop C]

Hawkeye,

Since you appear to have served in the PA, I wonder if you can elaborate on some aspects:

1. I understand that Mujahid battalions are composed of irregulars, but the CO is a regular PA officer. My question is - what is preventing them from being absorbed into the paramilitary forces like the NLI? Is it a cost issue? Also, are they paid out of the PA's budget?

2. I have read from more than one source that a Pakistani counterattack is often very effective. Can you share what makes it so? I'd guess speed, but is there something else? What is the underpinning doctrine that makes it more effective than an Indian counterattack (if indeed that is the case)?

Thanks

[lemontree]

Hawkeye,

Since you appear to have served in the PA, I wonder if you can elaborate on some aspects:

He is a serving officer.

1. I understand that Mujahid battalions are composed of irregulars, but the CO is a regular PA officer. My question is - what is preventing them from being absorbed into the paramilitary forces like the NLI? Is it a cost issue? Also, are they paid out of the PA's budget?

From what I know, the Mujahid battalions are para-military officered by PA regular officers. They may not be made regular as these belong to "Azad Kashmir", hence making them regular will show the world that "Azad Kashmir" is not azad (free). NLI is made up of men from the Northern Areas, i.e Gilgit, Baltistan region, which Pakistan does not recongnise as part of Kashmir and has incorporated it within itself. Hence, NLI could be made a regular force.

2. I have read from more than one source that a Pakistani counterattack is often very effective. Can you share what makes it so? I'd guess speed, but is there something else? What is the underpinning doctrine that makes it more effective than an Indian counterattack (if indeed that is the case)?

The counter attack has to be immediate, baised on the principle that the captued ground is lightly held by the enemy during his reorg stage. Hence, if they quickly launch a counter attack it would succeed in dislodging the enemy.
However, Hawk_eye do correct me if I am wrong.

[Anoop C]

Lemontree,

Thank you for the info. My apologies to Hawkeye for 'retiring' him!

Yes, the aspect about 'Azad' Kashmir is certainly valid. However, here's what I got from a post on Orbat.com:

My father raised and commanded a mujahid battalion in 92-93
usually mujahid battalions have designatins in the series of 600s,700s and 800s
like 640 mujahid battalion, located in 66 brigade area, 23 division
647 Mjd Bn in 333 Bde , 23 div
648 -do-
653 mjd bn in 3 AK Bde area, 23 div
654 -do-
655 mjd bn in 4AK Bde area, 23 div
657 mjd bn, 66 brigade, 23 div
658 mjd bn , -do-
801 mjd bn , 3 AK brigade, 23 div
816 -do-
831 and 833 are field artillery regiments within mujahid force
837 is in Sialkot with 8 division
units in 12 div have designations in 700s like 760
Mujahid Force Regiment has its regimental training centre in Bhimber

Given that they are attached to regular PA Bdes and Divs. and commanded by PA officers, it seems difficult to sustain the notion that they are part of the 'Azad' Kashmir force. As far as I know, PoK does not have a standing army, but have AJK designated regiments. The question then is, why aren't the Mujahid battalions affiliated to the AJK regiments?

-------------

Regarding counterattacks, yes, immediacy is what I had in mind when I wrote 'speed'. I assume that this is a SOP for any army's counterattack. I was curious about the reasons behind the efficacy of the PA's counterattacks.

[lemontree]

Given that they are attached to regular PA Bdes and Divs. and commanded by PA officers, it seems difficult to sustain the notion that they are part of the 'Azad' Kashmir force. As far as I know, PoK does not have a standing army, but have AJK designated regiments. The question then is, why aren't the Mujahid battalions affiliated to the AJK regiments?

There an error in the statement (in the quote) that Mujahid bns numbering 700-800 are deployed in PA's 12 Div. I had faced 653 and 654 Muhajid Bns that were part of 3 Bde or 12 Div.
12 Div is based in Muree and 23 Div in Jhelum, with Chamb-Dewa as its area of responsibility, while 12 Div has defence of POK as its responsilbility.
Pakistan referes to 'AJK' bns as AK bns and we call them POK bns. These were formed from the laskars and irregular forces that had invaded Kashmir in 1947/48.
The Mujahids were raised much later and are akin to the Pak Rangers or our BSF. AK/POK are considered regular while Mujahid bns are para-military hence they are not affiliated together.

I was curious about the reasons behind the efficacy of the PA's counterattacks.

It is as good or bad as any other armies counter-attack. It all depends on the reserves and firepower that are employed.

[Anoop C]

Captain, thank you for the clarifications. And more importantly, for your service to our nation.

[Hawk_eye]

He is a serving officer.

From what I know, the Mujahid battalions are para-military officered by PA regular officers. They may not be made regular as these belong to "Azad Kashmir", hence making them regular will show the world that "Azad Kashmir" is not azad (free). NLI is made up of men from the Northern Areas, i.e Gilgit, Baltistan region, which Pakistan does not recongnise as part of Kashmir and has incorporated it within itself. Hence, NLI could be made a regular force.

The counter attack has to be immediate, baised on the principle that the captued ground is lightly held by the enemy during his reorg stage. Hence, if they quickly launch a counter attack it would succeed in dislodging the enemy.
However, Hawk_eye do correct me if I am wrong.

Thankyou for a very balanced analysis sir, :) and yes the NLI comprises of men from the N.A.