POWERFUL. Please read this.

[Silent Hunter]

What's "Takkiyah"?

[physicsmonk]

What's "Takkiyah"?

i think it basically means lying to achieve your objective.sanctioned in islamic theology.

[Silent Hunter]

Thank you. You learn something new everyday, physicsmonk.

[Tarek Morgen]

Tarek, Few of them may be just employing 'Takkiyah'.

Since I basicly owe my life to a few of them, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt....

[Vinod2070]

Tarek, I could well be wrong about the individuals concerned. It is the general tendency that I am talking about.

People do hide their real intentions when they don't want unnecessary alarm.

[Bluesman]

OK, here's some facts for you:
* Muslim population of Europe at the present time: c.23 million. Out of nearly 710 million, counting European Russia.

*******s. I presume you've failed to count Turks. And converts (who, like ALL new adherants to relions/causes/what-have-you, tend to be on fire for their new-found 'truth'). And a steady stream of immigrants that is rising every year in raw number and fervor, which gives a greater weight to their sentiments. They're also failing to bond to their new countries, and instead, seek to and succeed in many different ways great and small to drive an accomodation to THEM by the native populations.

* Percentage of Muslims prepared to rise up and impose Sharia law on everyone- less than 2% and that's at the extreme upper end of the scale.

This is as gross a mis-understanding of your problem as you can dam' well get.

There will be no 'rising-up' of Muslims; there won't be any necessity of such an idiotic frontal attack.

* Percentage of non-Muslims in that category- very close to zero.

Not sure what you're trying to prove with this data point. Anyway, it's not germane to the question.

* So make that about a million people. Consider that most of those will have little to no weapons training and dock a considerable proportion of those who are not fit for military service.

Again, you have NO IDEA what the nature of your enemy is, nor how he fights and defeats you. WEAPONS?!? TRAINING?!? MILITARY SERVIC?!? What the HELL do you think is going on, anyway? Do you really, actually imagine that I'm telling you that your decrepit old society is under PHYSICAL ATTACK?!?

Friend, we're not on the same page, AT ALL. You're not hip to the rap I'm layin on you, baby.

* NATO Armed Forces- not counting the USA, 1.2 million at a rough guess? Even if you dock half of those, you've still got 600,000 people- 40 divisions, all of whom who are weapons trained. That's before we add non-NATO and the Americans.

NATO, huh? The body constituted for the defense of weak but rich Europe against the Warsaw Pact, which includes Turkey? THAT NATO? The same one that was a crutch that allowed Europe to stick the US with their defense tab, and ennervated them to the extent that the entire continent behaves like a spoiled brat that won't take up its rightful sovereign responsibility to look after their own safety?

NOT RELEVANT to the question at hand.

* Outside insurgents- Unknown, but not higher than 10 million.

INSURGENTS?!? You keep thinking this is a military issue. It ain't. Insurgents are no danger to you (yet). Your city councilmen and MPs are. Do you REALLY not understand what we're trying to tell you?

* Citizens of Europe willing to join in- including Muslims, a lot.

A questionable statement, even IF the nature of the threat were as you assume so wrongly. But the good, tolerant peoples of Europe are actually assisting in their own defeat. You don't see it, but we can perceive it from where we sit.

* Best equipment of the Islamist terrorist- the Igla

Equipement, huh? Get off that paradigm. Iglas will be absolutely of no help in defeating your nations and cultures. Zero. That's not what is going on.

* Best equipment of NATO- the F/A-18 Hornet, several aircraft carriers and quite a few TLAM submarines.

HOLY CRAP!!! Do you mean you guys intend to bomb downtown Bradford, Leeds, Birmingham and every other major metro area in your country, and wipe out every halal stand, every mosque, every Muslim student organization? RUTHLESS, man! Of course, even if the threat were as you wrongly perceive it, you'd never, ever do any such thing as actually FIGHT your own citizens in the streets. And when they use perfectly legitmate weapons - which you've put into their hands, by the way - such as the press, the vote, the courts, the political system, then what excuse will you have to launch a TLAM into a minaret on a mosque that preaches disloyalty to the crown, right in the big fat middle of HRH's realm and capital city?

*Co-ordination of the collective global Islamist movement- not massive.

That's one of it's greatest strengths: there is NO center of gravity that may be neutralized by any means at our command. The IDEA itself - world-wide, dominant Islam, a planetary caliphate, is the motivating force, and you simply cannot hope to defeat the passion and zealotry that the Koran and all its teachings of superiority contained therein. Your enemy's base is in the heart of every Muslim that yearns for Allah's ultimate victory, and I dare you to try to eliminate it through any means that YOU seem to believe is significant. Alliances, weapons, manpower? Utterly irrelevant.

Historical examples of attempts to take over Europe by armed force- two. Both major failures.

Attempts to take over massive swaths of territory by an idea, a political system? Any number of examples of successes.

Try to really get your head around this: nobody here is talking about armed force except you. That is NOT how Europe will lose its Western culture and identity.

Assassinations of European politicians by Islamist terrorists- 1.

Attempts? Numerous. And more will be coming. And more will succeed.

Attempted assassinations of senior European politicians by Islamist terrorists, as in actual discharge of weapons- Zero.

Weapons again. Don't care, even if you're wrong. There have been multiple plots to kill heads-of-state across Europe that haven't got within effective range. I consider those as attempts, even as lame and comical as most of them have been. (Most of the comic opera bouffe play-actors have relied on their simplistic faith in their bloodthirsty god for success, but still - in their fanaticism and fervor, they'd have done it if they weren't as incompetent in execution as they've so far been.)

Islamist terrorist attacks in Europe, not counting Russia since 9/11- 2. Both under 400 dead.

You're quite simply counting the wrong things. Count new mosques constructed, new babies born to muslims, new converts, new political parties that are explicitly Muslim, and a million other things that are significant. The body count - which, in time, will increase to an extent that will depend of the strength of the resistance that establishment Europeans are able to rouse themselves to.

[Vinod2070]

PhysicsMonk, I also feel that many innocent Muslims will get badly caught in the inevitable blowback, if you had a few large incidents or the locals start feeling threatened due to whatever reasons.

[Bluesman]

Soft-target attacks on their own never work. Look at the Blitz and Lebanon 2006.

Incorrect; it just DID work. I'll take that back if the PPP wins on 8 January.

[Silent Hunter]

Turkey's not part of Europe, which is why I wasn't counting it.

Just how are Muslims as a collective going to undermine European civilisation?

At the end of the today, the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people who oppose terrorism. If you seriously think otherwise, then I'm glad you're no longer in your country's military.

[Silent Hunter]

Incorrect; it just DID work. I'll take that back if the PPP wins on 8 January.

I meant soft-target attacks on a strategic scale. Of course they killed Bhutto. Musharraf's still in power though.

[Vinod2070]

Incorrect; it just DID work. I'll take that back if the PPP wins on 8 January.

Not to mention Spain election results and withdrawal from the Iraq war after the Madrid train bombing.

[Silent Hunter]

OK, one example. But that's it.

[Bluesman]

The statement on Kosovo by Peters is highly inaccurate, as anyone in the RAF or the Luftwaffe would tell you (Germany went to war for the first time since 1945 over Kosovo). Quite a few of the NATO Europe forces have forces committed to Operation Enduring Freedom.

They went to 'war', did they? By sending token forces to an area that had largely been pacified by US forces, and restricting them with an RoE regime that made their presence more dangerous to themselves than it was useful to their government.

I don't mean to denigrate the work of the forces themselves (actually, I'm grateful for all they've endured and accomplished). But the political class in Europe is so ennervated, emasculated, effete and effeminate that when they ARE finally shamed into making the barest minimum move to deal with their responsibilities, it is usually a joke, and a net loss in moving the ball for the Good Guys.

Albania hasn't produced masses of Islamist terrorists, nor has Bosnia. Or Turkey for that matter- most of the terrorism there is Kurdish, a very different issue.

Bosnians actually have been going a-jihading in large numbers.

If Europe was turning into Eurabia, I (a white Brit living in outer East London) would know several Muslims well. I know precisely one- and he's a Tory.

Tool on down to the local mosque, white boy, and see what's happenin' inside. Better yet, check out what they're saying about you when you're NOT around.

If I want to see a woman wearing a veil, I need to hop on the Tube to at least East Ham.

Next time there's a major attack on a Western city, spend the day crusing around the majority-Muslim area of town, and see what the general reaction is amongst the local lads, the younger set, the on-fire faithful.

[Silent Hunter]

You haven't answered my major point?

How is Europe becoming "Eurabia".

[physicsmonk]

PhysicsMonk, I also feel that many innocent Muslims will get badly caught in the inevitable blowback, if you had a few large incidents or the locals start feeling threatened due to whatever reasons.

Agree to it totally.I can see something like this happening in India too.If the pseud seculars in media dont stop their practice of perverse secularism and govt policies like Manmohan Singhs new 15 pt formula are implemented,it would only take a few terrorist attacks to turn resentment of majority into overt hostility.and with way things are going in Pak at the moment chances of violence spilling over to India remain high.