Letters from Iwo Jima

[Stan187]

War can break down any man... When your government abandoned you, and you are left to die on some bleak island knowing that you will never see your family again.. Only the most zealous spsychotic people can hold onto such a lie..

That can go both ways. Those kind of conditions can make a normal man give up. But they can also make an indoctrinated fight even harder. As I said, only some odd two hundred of them surrendered, and not all of these prisoners willingly chose to surrender themselves. They were damn committed. If you know that there are these devils-come-to-life are coming after you, and you're dead for sure, it ain't too much of a stretch to say that you'd fight your hardest to take down as many of them with you as possible. In fact, from what I understand, that is exactly what happened.

[dalem]

War can break down any man... When your government abandoned you, and you are left to die on some bleak island knowing that you will never see your family again.. Only the most zealous spsychotic people can hold onto such a lie..

It wasn't "breaking down" that caused the Japanese to burn Nanking.

It wasn't "breaking down" that caused the Japanese to perform biological warfare experiments on prisoners.

It wasn't "breaking down" that caused the Japanese to turn out female prisoners as "comfort women".

It wasn't "breaking down" that caused the Japanese to routinely torture defenseless soldiers, prisoners, and civilians.

It was, in fact, exactly what the Japanese had been "built up" to be over the previous generation.

Whatever the reason, whatever the roots, they were indeed monsters at that time.

-dale

[glyn]

[QUOTE=dalem;397440]

Whatever the reason, whatever the roots, they were indeed monsters at that time.

They undoubtedly were, but what I still cannot fully comprehend was what made them so bestial in so short a time. Prisoners of the Japanese during WW1 were treated humanely.

[entropy]

[QUOTE=glyn;397452]

Whatever the reason, whatever the roots, they were indeed monsters at that time.

They undoubtedly were, but what I still cannot fully comprehend was what made them so bestial in so short a time. Prisoners of the Japanese during WW1 were treated humanely.

Dalem, Officer of Engineers and me have had a discussion about what turns people into monsters, and how quickly it happens. It is in the thread about the Mecca bombing. Perhaps it can be applied here as well.

[Gun Grape]

I do not think that had it have been Canadian, American or British soldiers on some shitty island, abandoned by your own government and left to rot.... That we would have done what those Japanese did. More than likely we would have negotiated a mass surrender. The Japanese fought to the last man, in honour of there loved ones...that speaks volumes to me.

Then I suggest you read about the Marines at Wake Island. Where a 523 man Marine Defense Battalion, VMF-211, 68 Navy Personnel and 1200 civilian construction workers made their stand.

The ONLY repulsed amphibious invasion in WW2 and the first Japanese defeat.

The Marines sank 2 Japanese destroyers from the shore and VMF-211 sunk 1 from the air.

The Japanese then had to dispatch 2 aircraft carriers and more soldiers.

The second attempt was a success and of the 2500 Japanese soldiers in the landing force the Americans (according to Japanese records) Killed 900 and wounded 1000.

After the First attempted landing, the US Commander Navy Commander Winfield Scott Cunningham sent the famous request "Send More Japs".

Granted they didn't fight to the last man. But against all odds, knowing there would be no help they made the enemy pay.

[dalem]

[QUOTE=entropy;397479]

Dalem, Officer of Engineers and me have had a discussion about what turns people into monsters, and how quickly it happens. It is in the thread about the Mecca bombing. Perhaps it can be applied here as well.

It was different for the Japanese - simple but deliberate education and indoctrination over a generation or two as opposed to rapid degeneration in a year or two.

Again, building up as opposed to breaking down. The common thread is that we are, all of us, capable of such bestial behavior. It's all about who you think deserves what.

-dale

[Canmoore]

It wasn't "breaking down" that caused the Japanese to burn Nanking.

It wasn't "breaking down" that caused the Japanese to perform biological warfare experiments on prisoners.

It wasn't "breaking down" that caused the Japanese to turn out female prisoners as "comfort women".

It wasn't "breaking down" that caused the Japanese to routinely torture defenseless soldiers, prisoners, and civilians.

It was, in fact, exactly what the Japanese had been "built up" to be over the previous generation.

Whatever the reason, whatever the roots, they were indeed monsters at that time.

-dale

War can turn anyone into monsters Dalem.

Yes the Japanese conducted horrendous tests on POW's and on people from countries they had conquered. However, the Americans were no saints either.

The american military dropped incendiary bombs onto Japanese civilians...targeting Japans civilians rather than its military. Japanese huddled together in bomb shelters would melt into a gelatinous mass from the intense heat..

American soldiers would keep the skulls of the Japanese as trophies...they treated the Japanese as if they were not even human. Like you would keep the head of a deer..

American media demonized the Japanese as savage monsters. North American Japanese where targeted by this, and sent to camps... families were torn apart and lives ruined.

Both sides were victims of a brainwash attempt, in order to keep the troops fighting, and support for the war on the home front.


Even today Dalem, American soldiers have done, and are are still doing horrendous crimes against humans.. from dropping napalm on villages in Vietnam, the sickening treatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison. To the use of depleted uranium shells in current conflicts, with its lasting impacts on civilians and soldiers alike.

Also "down-winders" from Nevada, would have you believe that they are "unofficial" guinea pigs of the American Government, to study the effects of Nuclear Fallout, and radiation on humans during the testing of its nuclear weapons.

[Stan187]

War can turn anyone into monsters Dalem. But societies where hate and superiority and militarism were indoctrinated into the civil society even without the military produced such monsters on a much more consistent and predictable basis.

Yes the Japanese conducted horrendous tests on POW's and on people from countries they had conquered. However, the Americans were no saints either.
In comparison to the WWII Japanese they damn well were. I'm sure you've heard of Nanking, and that was just the tip of the iceberg. Some of their live human bio-chem weapons testing gives Hitler's cronies a run for their money in gruesomeness.
The american military dropped incendiary bombs onto Japanese civilians...I've read that at least at first, this was overlooked in intelligence. The Americans apparently hadn't done their homework, and did not know that most all Japanese houses were made of light/flammable wood. So when they did the calculations for how much incindiary they needed, they really overestimated. However, as the war went on and the Japanese were encouraging everyone to manufacture for the war effort in their backyards as opposed to just factories. Mass firebombing cities where such manufacturing is prevalent is no more and no less brutal that firebombing Dresden's ball-bearing factories.

.

[Officer of Engineers]

Oh come on, Canmoore, at least read up on the Winnipeg Grenadiers and the RRC. The Americans did not adopt their attitudes until the Bantan Death March. It was the Japanese who started it's better to die than to surrender thing. The Americans simply obliged.

You're trying to tell me that our Canadian boys at Hong Kong should be understandable at the treatment they've got. Not a chance in hell!

[Canmoore]

Oh come on, Canmoore, at least read up on the Winnipeg Grenadiers and the RRC. The Americans did not adopt their attitudes until the Bantan Death March. It was the Japanese who started it's better to die than to surrender thing. The Americans simply obliged.

You're trying to tell me that our Canadian boys at Hong Kong should be understandable at the treatment they've got. Not a chance in hell!

I am not trying to make excuses for why any side did what they did in the war. The Japanese did unspeakable things to the people they had conquered in the war yes. There is no denying that war crimes were committed by the Japanese.

I am just trying to point out that there was a human side to the average Japanese soldier who probably wanted nothing more than to just be at home living his normal life. We are not talking about mindless robots programed to murder and torture, we are talking about human beings capable of free thought and feelings... however superstitions and fear were exploited to keep such things in check.

I think that it is obvious that such crimes were not committed by the lower ranks voluntarily. But commanding officers are more likely to be blamed for such atrocities, the lower ranks just carried out the dirty work. The same can be said about the Holocaust.

[Officer of Engineers]

I think that it is obvious that such crimes were not committed by the lower ranks voluntarily.

Of course they were - the very definition of no quarters asked nor given.

[astralis]

canmoore,

I think that it is obvious that such crimes were not committed by the lower ranks voluntarily. But commanding officers are more likely to be blamed for such atrocities, the lower ranks just carried out the dirty work. The same can be said about the Holocaust.

that is where you are wrong. on both counts. in both the holocaust and the japanese occupation (but more so the latter), the lower ranks not only carried out the dirty work, they did so quite happily.

you are right in that each individual japanese soldier had, of course, his own hopes and fears and family. most of them were probably decent human beings. however, put in mob mentality, ultra-nationalism, racism, and militarism to boot, and soon you have a bunch of soldiers who went above and beyond their disgusting call of duty to "kill all, burn all, and loot all" (sanko sakusen, the "Three Alls" policy, something btw, was authorized by hirohito). so yes, they committed these crimes voluntarily.

you cannot make unwilling people commit this level of war crime. one of the reasons why the germans moved to the gas-concentration camp formula was because individual german soldiers were breaking down and committing suicide when they had to gun down (and thus see) the people they were murdering. the japanese did not seem so inhibited.

[dalem]

War can turn anyone into monsters Dalem.

The war didn't do it, gorrammit, they did it to themselves. Read a f*ucking book or talk to a guy who was there. They. Were. Monsters. When. They. Started.

Even the frikkin' Nazis treated their (Western) opponents well and relatively chivalrously at times. When you compare unfavorably to the Nazis, you have a serious problem.

-dale

[dalem]

I am not trying to make excuses for why any side did what they did in the war.

Yes, you are. You are claiming that the Japanese' barbaric behavior was a result of the war (a war THEY started, by the way).

-dale

[Canmoore]

Whatever, you can think whatever you want.