Pearl Harbour - got the US into a bloodlust
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Most decisive battle of World War 2
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I would say Stalingrad in that both sides really really needed to win it. The other battles weren't as crucial. Even if America lost Midway, more aircraft carriers were being built and Japan didn't have enough resources.
Maybe this poll should be separated between Pacific and European theatre?
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Originally posted by JAD_333 View PostI picked Leyte Gulf before sneaking a peek at the posts. Stalingrad is a good pick for the European theater. Midway might be a better choice in the Pacific theater. It did more damage to the Japanese navy. But had the Japanese succeeded at Leyte Gulf US forces already on the beach and preparing to push on to take Luzon would have been been seriously mauled and the retaking of the Philippines would have been delayed and with it the planned invasion of the Japanese homeland. The retaking of the Philippeans meant the Japanese could no longer defend the sealanes they depended on to ship oil to the homeland. So, if Leyte wasn't the most decisive battle; it ranks high up there."Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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The GMT game Empire of the Sun tries to address the perfect analogy that gunnut gave us by tying political points to certain events. The designer's theory is that if the U.S. suffers enough losses they'd have to sue for peace in the Pacific theater due to public pressure, independent of the assemply line of ships, men, and planes. I don't really buy his premise, but the game is a lot of fun so I don't really care that much. :)
-dale
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Thank you both for the endorsement!
I don't buy the premise of that game you're talking about, Dale. That sounds like a game based upon the 60s mentality, and today's political climate. Back in WW2, the American people were quite pissed off and they weren't gonna pull back until the enemy was smashed to bits. Everything in the nation was geared to put our boots in Tokyo and Berlin. Nothing short of total victory would suffice."Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
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I tend to agree that the premise is rather questionable under the circumstances. However, it is a convenient game mechanism to 'keep things moving' and provide for some possibility of 'victory' for the Japanese player - beyond the less than totally satisfying 'get completely crushed more slowly' type of victory condition.
Without either a 'timer' or other 'pressure' for the Americans to take the offensive, they might just 'play it safe' and retreat to the west coast until the entire '100 carrier' fleet, with fleet trains, is ready!Last edited by deadkenny; 26 May 07,, 01:12.
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Originally posted by deadkenny View PostI tend to agree that the premise is rather questionable under the circumstances. However, it is a convenient game mechanism to 'keep things moving' and provide for some possibility of 'victory' for the Japanese player - beyond the less than totally satisfying 'get completely crushed more slowly' type of victory condition.
Without either a 'timer' or other 'pressure' for the Americans to take the offensive, they might just 'play it safe' and retreat to the west coast until the entire '100 carrier' fleet, with fleet trains, is ready!
-dale
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Originally posted by gunnut View PostI doubt US would be detered if Japan actually won the battle at Leyte. US, by 1944, was cranking at near full capacity. There were endless waves of reinforcements heading into the Pacific. Japan could not afford to lose a decisive battle. The US didn't have a decisive battle. Every single battle was one in a long chain for the US on a very broad front. It was like a rich man playing poker with an average Joe. The rich man can commit the full amount of the average Joe owns, on every hand. Losing one hand doesn't dent the rich man's pocket. Losing a hand will lose the average Joe's game.To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato
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I think the most important battle in the Second World War was the Battle of France in 1940.
That's the battle that really made the Second World War what it was. The whole character of the war derives from it.
If the German attack on France bogged down, WWII becomes a very different war. Perhaps it doesn't become a "world war" at all, but remains a European War.
For example:
--The Battle of the Atlantic only became a major affair after the defeat of the Allies in France. Prior to the debacle of 1940, the naval situation wasn't bad from an Allied perspective. But after winning the Battle of France, the Germans gained valuable strategic bases in the West, while the Allied fleet got stretched thinner after the loss of the French.
--Does the USA become as involved in the affair if Britain's plight is not as desperate?
--Does the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact stay intact, or does Stalin finally do what the Germans claimed he was planning to do? At any rate, it was only after the collapse of the Western allies in France that the Germans could contemplate a war with the USSR.
--The rout of the Western Allies in 1940 certainly encouraged the Japanese to try to exploit the situation to their advantage, viz. the unresisted occupation of Indochina.
But although the Battle of France was the important battle in determing what sort of war WWII became, could it be said to be the most "decisive" battle? After all,
1. The winner of the battle lost the war.
2. The battle did not end the war or even turn the its tide.
3. Was a different outcome even possible? How can something be "decisive" if the outcome is forgone?
#3 is an interesting question. I started a thread a while ago asking whether Gamelin could have made a better plan. Link:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/his...l-gamelin.html
But the consensus opinion (with which I don't fully agree) seems to be that the Allied armies in 1940 had no chance of achieving the stalemate they desired, that they were at too great a disadvantage in terms of doctrine, command structure, and morale to not be rapidly defeated etc.
So if the Battle of France was not a "decisive" battle, then what?
Well, from there, I made the following deductions, reasoning mostly from the scale of events:
A. Most decisive theatre: Europe.
B. Most decisive front in that theatre: Russia.
So then it would be a question of which battle on the Russian Front was the most decisive.
Since neither side's forces were largely destroyed at Moscow or Kursk, that basically leaves it down to either Kiev, Stalingrad or "Bagration."
Kiev was the biggest victory of the three, but again the winner of the battle lost the war. It was not "decisive" then, it determining the war's outcome.
Between the remaining two, Stalingrad and "Bagration," I choose Stalingrad.
While "Bagration" I think was more destructive of Axis forces, Stalingrad not only has the "tide turning" aspect, but it was also fought by the Soviets without the aid of an active Second Front.
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Although the men and materiel lost by the Germans at Stalingrad was grievous and the effect on morale was devastating, it was a blow they could've recovered from.
By comparison, Bagration caused the essential destruction of an entire Army Group, the Germans losing about a fourth of their total Eastern Front strength in just a few weeks. It also cut off Heeresgruppe Nord, resulting in the eventual formation of the Courland pocket, where that army group met its end. Heeresgruppe Sud was forced into Rumania and Hungary, where they engaged in a steady retreat into Czechoslovakia, Austria, and southern Germany until the bitter end.
Bagration was, by the numbers game, probably the single greatest defeat of the Wehrmacht. It broke the back of the Wehrmacht in the east permanently."The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man
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For me, there are two Midway and Stalingrad ( though Alamein occurred at aboout the same time as Stalingrad ) as there we see the battles that show the definite turning of the tide.
Given the parameters of the question, it is hard however to avoid subjectivism.
Jonathan
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Originally posted by cape_royds View PostI think the most important battle in the Second World War was the Battle of France in 1940.
That's the battle that really made the Second World War what it was. The whole character of the war derives from it.
If the German attack on France bogged down, WWII becomes a very different war. Perhaps it doesn't become a "world war" at all, but remains a European War.
Originally posted by cape_royds View PostFor example:
--The Battle of the Atlantic only became a major affair after the defeat of the Allies in France. Prior to the debacle of 1940, the naval situation wasn't bad from an Allied perspective. But after winning the Battle of France, the Germans gained valuable strategic bases in the West, while the Allied fleet got stretched thinner after the loss of the French.
--Does the USA become as involved in the affair if Britain's plight is not as desperate?
--Does the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact stay intact, or does Stalin finally do what the Germans claimed he was planning to do? At any rate, it was only after the collapse of the Western allies in France that the Germans could contemplate a war with the USSR.
--The rout of the Western Allies in 1940 certainly encouraged the Japanese to try to exploit the situation to their advantage, viz. the unresisted occupation of Indochina.
Regarding the US entry, I believe Roosevelt still wants to help the Allies and certainly a Japanese attack on the US facilitates that. But does the US agree to a ‘Europe First’ strategy if the Allies are still holding a front in France? For that matter, does Japan attack the US at all in that context?
Another good point regarding the Soviet Union. If Germany is ‘bogged down’ fighting in France, one can probably assume that Stalin would at least be more aggressively asserting his claims in Scandinavia and the Balkans, if not actually ‘stabbing Germany in the back’.
Originally posted by cape_royds View PostI started a thread a while ago asking whether Gamelin could have made a better plan. Link:
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/his...l-gamelin.html
But the consensus opinion (with which I don't fully agree) seems to be that the Allied armies in 1940 had no chance of achieving the stalemate they desired, that they were at too great a disadvantage in terms of doctrine, command structure, and morale to not be rapidly defeated etc.
Originally posted by leib10 View PostAlthough the men and materiel lost by the Germans at Stalingrad was grievous and the effect on morale was devastating, it was a blow they could've recovered from.
By comparison, Bagration caused the essential destruction of an entire Army Group, the Germans losing about a fourth of their total Eastern Front strength in just a few weeks. It also cut off Heeresgruppe Nord, resulting in the eventual formation of the Courland pocket, where that army group met its end. Heeresgruppe Sud was forced into Rumania and Hungary, where they engaged in a steady retreat into Czechoslovakia, Austria, and southern Germany until the bitter end.
Bagration was, by the numbers game, probably the single greatest defeat of the Wehrmacht. It broke the back of the Wehrmacht in the east permanently.
Originally posted by JBG View Post… though Alamein occurred at aboout the same time as Stalingrad …
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It is really hard for me to say it is this battle or that. But I feel there is one that has yet to be mentioned that was of great importance. July 10, 1940 to Oct 31, 1940 The Battle of Britain during which England lost 915 aircraft (1 in 3 of its air crews) and Germany lost 1733 of 4200 Aircraft. The objective of this battle was to destroy the British RAF so Operation Sealion the German invasion of England could commence totally free of aerial threat. Hitler was also aware of the importance of Operation Sealion and said "This operation is dictated by the necessity to eliminate Great Britain as a base from which the war against Germany can be fought." OH how right he was! The failure of his Air Campaign in the Battle of Britain prevented his invasion plans from ever seeing the other side of the Channel. The loss of the Battle of Britain and total fizzle of Operation Sealion was the first to fall of a long line of dominoes. This one battle forced Hitler to keep vital troops in western Europe when they were desperately needed on the Eastern Front.
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