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Could Losing The War In Iraq Be Good For America?

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  • Could Losing The War In Iraq Be Good For America?

    Good Lord! our president ( A die hard John Bircher) and his newest speech, before I threatened to quit the party!

    Boy I tell you! This Pat buchannan is a real piece of work!

    COULD LOSING THE WAR IN IRAQ BE GOOD FOR AMERICA?

    By: Jim Moore

    Whoa! What's this? A traitor in our midst? A Benedict Arnold right under our nose? How could any patriotic American even ask such a question?

    Frankly, I don't know how any patriotic American could NOT ask such a question, if they have given any thought to the damage being done to America, and the disastrous events in the world relating to that damage.

    There's an old saying, that the hardest lessons to learn are the easiest to forget. We are living proof of that axiom. We, in America, have forgotten all the lessons that we learned in the 200+ years of our nation's existence.

    So, what lessons did we forgot that will help put this war into proper perspective, and justify that: "losing the war might be good for America?"

    LESSON #1: WE'RE STRONG, BUT NOT OMNIPOTENT

    It took America several years of fighting in the Korean icebox and the steaming jungles of Vietnam to realize that as powerful as we are, when we're fighting nations whose people refuse to be conquered, the war is over before it's begun. It is one of war's great tragedies that we had to lose 34,000 men in Korea and 55,000 in Vietnam before we learned this simple truth. Must more of our soldiers die in Iraq before the lesson of our limitations sinks in?

    LESSON #2: WAR WITHOUT CONGRESS' OKAY IS A CRIME

    Whether or not the President asked Congress for a declaration of war is not the issue. Bush made it clear that, with or without congressional consent, he intended to attack Iraq. And he did. Yet, the U.S. Constitution explicitly states that Congress alone, has the authority to declare war. Ignoring this lesson is not only costing lives, it is giving the president dictatorial power. And those powers are the great destroyer of freedom.

    LESSON #3: FOREIGN MEDDLING GUARANTEES TROUBLE

    Our founding fathers warned us about interfering in foreign disputes. They knew that once a nation gets involved in another nation's problems it becomes nearly impossible to escape the entanglement. But we forgot their warning. So now, whatever resources we have in manpower and equipment, is being lost to us and to our country. In Iraq, the rescuer, has become the interloper. And we now find we are depleting our manpower and resources, and being hated as well.

    LESSONS #4: A NATION'S SOVEREIGNTY IS SACROSANCT

    Sovereignty should reign supreme. It is a country's heartbeat and is what separates (but not alienates) it from all other nations. New World Order "architects" work for the dissolution of national sovereignties and borders, because a "universal" system cannot exist without first eliminating the notion of national pride. And when one nation intervenes by warring on another, the assault on its sovereignty is all the more heinous.

    LESSON #5: INEFFECTIVE LEADERS NEED REPLACING

    After the 9/11 tragedy, we had every right to make the perpetrators pay for their crime. But after two years of vengeful rhetoric, and dubious results, we are discovering that this administration knows more about raising money than it does about fighting a war. Our leaders are directionless. Thus, we are fighting illegal battles, in a vicious country, with no sign of the wanted culprits, a continuous loss of military and civilian lives, billions of dollars spent unwisely, no plan for post-war occupation, and no exit strategy. Someone must pay for this ineptitude.

    LESSON #6: SOME SECRETS ARE THE PEOPLE'S BUSINESS

    We are told so little about what is REALLY going on in Iraq that one might think the war is finally over. It's proper for governments to hide sensitive information that, if leaked, could harm the country. It is wrong, however, for a government to treat information that the public can safely know, as untouchable. In fact, it is unconscionable A secretive government is hiding the truth about something. The government that keeps its citizens in the dark qualifies for totalitarianism.

    LESSON #7: A STRONG DEFENSE IS THE FIRST PRIORITY

    The 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center might not have happened, had we given first priority to America's defense capabilities. But somehow, the Defense department got mystically morphed into the Offense department. As such, it has the bulk of our manpower and armament busy fighting wars, instead of protecting our home shores---which the Constitution says is the military's responsibility. The same shores, incidentally ,that the president expects us to believe are more secure with our troops in Iraq.

    LESSON #8: MONEY FOR WAR IS BETTER SPENT AT HOME

    At last report, the war in Iraq is costing us a billion dollars a week, not including the $87 billion extra asked for (and gotten) by the administration.

    In addition, Americans we'll never know how many billions of dollars it costs us to feed, clothe, arm, and supply our troops "on guard" in 130 countries around the globe. These military expenditures are skyrocketing our national debt. But worse, it is keeping us from beefing up our border patrols, building adequate schools, repairing our aging highways, establishing a healthcare program, financing alternative energy research, and dozens of other national needs. But first, we have a war to pay for, right?

    LESSON #9: DISSENTING OPINIONS ARE CRUCIAL

    Not only are we considered traitors or troublemakers when we disagree about the rationale for going to war in Iraqi, but when countries like Germany and France raise dissenting voices, they are castigated as ungrateful peasants, or ignored as irrelevant entities. Everyone has opinions. Even if opinions differ from the mainstream and become dissent, they still deserve respect and a fair hearing Why? Because that is the oil that lubricates democracy. Thomas Jefferson said: "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." How soon we forget.

    LESSON #10: WEIGH CAREFULLY WHAT YOU ARE TOLD

    It is hardly news that during wartime the mainstream media is slanted toward the administration's version of it. Media is in business to make money. News is a big part of that business. So the media caters to its audience by telling it what it wants to hear---or what the administration wants it to hear. That's why what you hear about the war in Iraq is slanted toward the positive, when in fact, all is not going well for us over there.

    When what you are told does not square with less optimistic reports of it, cynicism is a forgivable sin.

    LESSON #11: KEEP ALIEN FORCES OUT OF GOVERNMENT

    By alien is not meant people from another planet. These aliens are government officials who are not elected, owe allegiance to more countries than America, are devious in their methods, have agendas at odds with America's values, and use the highest offices of the U.S. Government as their base of operations. Such are the neo-cons---a.k.a. the shadow government---in the administration. That is distressing enough. But the fact that their true agenda is to scrap our Constitution, abolish our sovereignty, and drive us into the socialist New Word Order, makes the neo-cons America's most dangerous enemy. Our Founders knew subversion existed, but never imagined foreign entanglements right here at home.

    Now you know why I think losing this war might be good for America. We need to re-learn the lessons we forgot.

  • #2
    Lets look at it like this.

    US loses the war in Iraq. Great for some.

    Then what happens?

    Civil War.

    Kurds, the Sunnis and Shias go their way!

    Balkanisation!

    Let's be very frank. If the US loses, you lose, I lose and the world loses.

    So, instead of carping, lets hope they win.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

    Comment


    • #3
      "COULD LOSING THE WAR IN IRAQ BE GOOD FOR AMERICA?"

      Ummm........NO

      Comment


      • #4
        Yes, the US is losing.

        But something must be done so that it does not lose.


        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

        HAKUNA MATATA

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ray
          Yes, the US is losing.

          But something must be done so that it does not lose.
          yeah what can we do!

          I bet if Kerry would have won, we'd a left that piece of **** country in a heart beat!

          God I hate Iraaq!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lulldapull
            yeah what can we do!
            Best thing you can do is give the world the impression that the US population whole heartedly supports the war in Iraq.
            The insurgency cannot win militarily, I think there is no question of that, their only hope is for the US to not have the will to win the war (as in Vietnam). Noisy opposition to your governments policy in Iraq only gives the impression to the insurgents that this could come to pass and ultimately it is this which is encouraging them to fight.
            In other words US opposition to the war is prolonging the fighting and suffering.

            Comment


            • #7
              Isurgency can't win, nor can the other.

              That is the sad part :(


              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

              HAKUNA MATATA

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Speedy
                Best thing you can do is give the world the impression that the US population whole heartedly supports the war in Iraq.
                The insurgency cannot win militarily, I think there is no question of that, their only hope is for the US to not have the will to win the war (as in Vietnam). Noisy opposition to your governments policy in Iraq only gives the impression to the insurgents that this could come to pass and ultimately it is this which is encouraging them to fight.
                In other words US opposition to the war is prolonging the fighting and suffering.

                dude I am telling you and I now believe it, because I didn't want to believe it at first!

                The God-damn leadership has once again betrayed our brave armed forces!

                they did this to us in Vietnam! In Somalia! and during GW-1, ad the decade that followed after that worthless war in iraq in 1991! and are still tied up in the Balkans with thousands of troops!

                our nation has been betrayed by these neocons! Once again! the world federalist pulls the wool over our eyes!

                I have friends fighting there! I know whats going on there! its a desperte struggle for both sides, while this Bush lies to us all!
                Last edited by lulldapull; 24 Nov 04,, 20:39.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ray
                  Isurgency can't win, nor can the other.

                  That is the sad part :(

                  No Ray! unfotunately the terrorists and insurgents will win because we will lose our patience and leave that shitty country! if not today, then tomorrow!

                  We need to convince the neighbouring camel jockeys to intervene! Otherwise one day the spell of lies from the Neocons will stop, and we will withdraw!

                  Without ever convicting those baastards who sent us there in the first place! just like Vietnam!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry.

                    No chance. It will be a disaster for the US to quit.

                    Much that anyone may surmise that it was incorrect to attack Iraq,yet, now that the pot is boiling over, it is stupid to hope that the US fails.

                    Let's hope that the US succeeds and things even out.

                    BTW, Lull, your friends are fighting ther in Iraq. My cousin is still there. So?

                    I expect him to do his duty for his country! His father is genuine British (gora saheb). He better not let his father down or even me. :)
                    Last edited by Ray; 24 Nov 04,, 20:56.


                    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                    HAKUNA MATATA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ray
                      Sorry.

                      No chance. It will be a disaster for the US to quit.

                      Much that anyone may surmise that it was incorrect to attack Iraq,yet, now that the pot is boiling over, it is stupid to hope that the US fails.

                      Let's hope that the US succeeds and things even out.

                      BTW, Lull, your friends are fighting ther in Iraq. My cousin is still there. So?

                      I expect him to do his duty for his country! His father is genuine British (gora saheb). He better not let his father down or even me. :)

                      dude I feel sorry for ppl over there! Both our guys and those pathetic Iraqis'!

                      like I said though, that from what I hear from those guys, the problem seems to be the incredible sense of humiliation the iraqi's feel against the U.S. for invading their country! its not about Saddam or Islam, its about revenge now! and Zarqawi and Alqaeda goons who have moved in to take advantage of the situation to further inflame it!

                      Allawi is a 2 cent puppet! and just like that Challabi gaandoo this Allawi will make a deal with the insurgents or iranians for allowing the insurgents to penetrate his govt.! :) And who knows if he's not already doing it yaar!

                      Abaay yae sub saalay aapas main milay huay hain! They are all harami, and very dirty ppl! All in to make a quick buck!

                      Btw. I am sure that the news in the rest of the world ( as my freinds from europe or middle east tell me so ) is very different than, and as opposed to, what we hear in the States! (A very sanitized/ censored version full of optimism)!

                      case in point being "lesson # 10"! from the above article.......
                      Last edited by lulldapull; 24 Nov 04,, 21:07.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Umm, we have already won the war in Iraq. Saddam is gone and we have rather complete verification that Iraq has no WMDs. Those were the original war goals, remember?

                        Now, if you want to argue over whether Iraq will be left with a functioning Western style democratic government, that's a completely different question. It'd be a nice bonus, sure.

                        But even if Iraq is partitioned into three separate states, left with a strong man, or descends into chaos, the US still has won, strategically speaking. Iraq is no longer a threat to it's neighbors, nor will it be for a long time to come.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The US is losing how?

                          WTF, i have no idea what you guys base your judgement on, but it's most definitely not sound military reasoning.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Lars has summed Iraq up nicely.

                            Kudos to you sir.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't know if I can agree with the statement that we have won the war.

                              Our mistake in Iraq is that we have attempted to liberate an aggressor nation. You don't liberate an aggressor nation--you conquer it. Then you impose your will on that nation, whether they like it or not. It's the method that we employed in both Germany and Japan. And we didn't worry about the infliction of civilian casualties in either instance.

                              Unfortunately, we have adopted the mindset that you can divide up the populace into good guys and bad guys camps. We tried that in Korea (to a lesser extent) and ended up fighting to a draw. We tried that in Vietnam and eventually withdrew our forces after 50,000+ dead--because we didn't have the guts, politically, to do what was necessary to win that war.

                              It is this politically correct solution that kills American soldiers because we are more worried about "public opinion" in the Middle East than we are with preserving the lives of America's sons and daughter serving in that country. It's not just a political mess; it's also a strategically unsound method for waging war. War is an ugly thing; a brutal thing. It has always been a political tool to a certain extent, but politics now leads the way instead of marching in step behind the pure military might portion.

                              Democracy will NEVER take root in Iraq. We may be able to plant the seeds, but the Iraqis are quite obviously not willing to fight and die to cultivate it. To them, "freedom" is less torture and state-sponsored murder, nothing more. Arabs have never known freedom in their collective histories. They are weak where it counts most--and you can't GIVE someone that type of strength. It has to come from within.

                              It was the same with the Vietnamese, which is why they fell so quickly after we left.

                              Korea remains free only because of a large American presence in the country. Japan and Germany had constitutions imposed upon them and we have occupied them for generations--with them eventually breeding their hostile nature out of themselves inside a safe yet controlled environment. Yes, they are free, but only because we were willing to take the necessary steps going in.

                              The only way democracy will take hold in Iraq is if we fight that war as it should have been fought from the beginning...you hammer the country until the white flag of surrender is formally held aloft and the people are in no mood to complain about anything. That's while we didn't have a single American soldier's death in either Germany or Japan after the formal cessation of hostilities. Both the Germans and the Japanese knew what would happen to them, collectively, if otherwise were to occur. And we didn't care how many of them were peace-loving. They were the enemy...period.

                              And we would have to occupy Iraq for a minimum of one generation, and we would have to turn them into a completely secular society.

                              I don't see any of that happening. Once we are gone, the Shiite majority (some 70% of the population) is going to take over. And we won't be going back to set things "right" once that happens. The Shiites aren't interested in sharing power...and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.
                              "If I see further than other men, it is because I stand upon the shoulders of giants."

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