Chinese Invasion of Taiwan, 2007

[zraver]

Sir, where is the 30% from ?

Forgien estimates, China offically grew its military budget by around 14% IIRC but observers say the refroms and new purchases require many times more than that. perhaps as much or more than double the listed increase.

[Zeng]

Forgien estimates, China offically grew its military budget by around 14% IIRC but observers say the refroms and new purchases require many times more than that. perhaps as much or more than double the listed increase.

The official military budget increase is 17.8% this year :)

But Foreign estimators are good at math to multiply numbers

Not only multiplying the absolute military budget by 3, but also multiplying the increasing rate by almost 2

[Officer of Engineers]

Zeng,

Back off. I gave you a wide latitude but this is where you are as in the dark as everybody else. For one thing, the official PLA budgets do not include capital purchases. Regiments do not have to buy their tanks or guns or even bullets. The PLA does not pay pensions. The CCP does. This essentially means that we have no way what a Chinese soldier costs.

Added to this, we really don't know what the expansion plans of the PLA is. Yes, they've shrunked by a million men since the 1980s but the number of regiments have not been reduced.

So don't tell us what you know because you know nothing.

[Stan187]

Added to this, we really don't know what the expansion plans of the PLA is. Yes, they've shrunked by a million men since the 1980s but the number of regiments have not been reduced.

How does that work? Are they just keeping a lot of regimantal equipment in reserve and not having these regiments manned to any significant strength?

[Officer of Engineers]

In essence, the PLA renamed the Cat C divisions (ie, at 25% strength) into brigades and regiments.

[ExNavyAmerican]

The official military budget increase is 17.8% this year

But Foreign estimators are good at math to multiply numbers

Not only multiplying the absolute military budget by 3, but also multiplying the increasing rate by almost 2

While you're telling us uninformed westerners the truth, why don't I tell everyone the things that is als "official" in China.

1) The United States dropped the A-bombs to make it look like we beat Japan, but in reality, the Japanese had already surrendered to Mao.

2) The Apollo mission was a hoax perpetrated by the imperialist U.S. government.

3) China beat the United States in Korea, after the United States invaded China.

These are the "official truths" in China, and gentlemen, I couldn't believe it when I heard it.

[Zeng]

Zeng,

Back off. I gave you a wide latitude but this is where you are as in the dark as everybody else. For one thing, the official PLA budgets do not include capital purchases. Regiments do not have to buy their tanks or guns or even bullets. The PLA does not pay pensions. The CCP does. This essentially means that we have no way what a Chinese soldier costs.

Added to this, we really don't know what the expansion plans of the PLA is. Yes, they've shrunked by a million men since the 1980s but the number of regiments have not been reduced.

So don't tell us what you know because you know nothing.

I surely know nothing. We all believed that you know everything.

But your statements show that there are absolute unknowns here. Then, what is the creditability of 30% increasing rate? Why should we believe that it is 30% not 25% or 35%?

[Zeng]

While you're telling us uninformed westerners the truth, why don't I tell everyone the things that is als "official" in China.

I cited the “official” number is because I don’t know the “true” number. Do you want me just say “The military budget increase is 17.8% this year”?

Sir, you forgot that you are living in a communist country and communist is infamous for exaggerated propaganda. Your comments sound pretty much like theirs. I was born in China and lived in China for most of my life but I didn’t know all the "official truths" you mentioned here.

Let me make some comments below:

1) The United States dropped the A-bombs to make it look like we beat Japan, but in reality, the Japanese had already surrendered to Mao.

Surely, CCP exaggerated the role of China especially the role of CCP in defeating Japan. But this is the first time that I ever heard the statement “the Japanese had already surrendered to Mao”. I heard the exaggeration like “Mao led Chinese people to defeat Japan”. About A-bomb, the common explanation in China is that it was dropped on Japan and was shown to USSR.

2) The Apollo mission was a hoax perpetrated by the imperialist U.S. government.

Some European media said that Apollo mission was a hoax and Chinese media cited their article. But you didn’t know that the scientists in Beijing Planetarium rebutted the article.

3) China beat the United States in Korea, after the United States invaded China.

I heard the first part of the sentence that “China beat the United States in Korea”. But this is the first time I ever heard the second part of the sentence that “after the United States invaded China”. In the very beginning of the war, USA pilots did mistakenly bomb the border areas in USSR and China. USA apologized to USSR but didn’t acknowledge the bombing on China.

These are the "official truths" in China, and gentlemen, I couldn't believe it when I heard it.

Sir, in just short three sentences, you gave me two first time surprises. Your exaggeration is pretty much comparable to that of the communist "official truths".

If what you said are all true, These are the "official truths" in China, then you should be able to provide the evidence for us. We are waiting for you to provide evidence. You show us evidence, I will stand corrected. If you can not show us the evidence, I hope that you can come out to correct yourself.

After you finished the teaching in China and go back to USA or other country, please be a little bit more moderate on your exaggeration.

I would like to elaborate the third points a little bit. From China’s view, although China didn’t defeat USA but China gained something. In fact, China feels luck now that China didn’t defeat USA. Otherwise, we may have another Vietnam on our northeast border. Today, many Chinese consider that the Korean war is the one that CCP fought with the largest cost and got the biggest gain.

The Korean War set a buffer zone for China for the northeast industrial region. China used Korean War results got large scale industrial aids from USSR and built the heavy industrial foundation. Korean War also prevented CCP’s invading Taiwan at that time. It avoided a war on China’s land. Taiwan later played important role in China’s reform and rapid development. Mao’s son died in Korean War, which may have changed China to a better direction.

Recently, CCP has become less dictatorship than before, all Chinese recent history has been rewritten. This forum has mentioned that a Chinese historian wrote an article to say that Tibet didn’t always belong to China. Indians on this forum took that as a big news. But these kinds of articles and books have become normal in China even several years ago.

There were also many books and articles published recently about all the wars China fought. For example, there is a book focusing on the mistakes and defeated battles of CVA in Korea. Several new anti-Japanese war books focused on the battles fought by KMT. Those kinds of books could not be published 10 years ago. But today, they have become normal. If you can read Chinese, you should read some of them.

ExNavyAmerican Sir, I sincerely thank you for your teaching Chinese kids in China. You may not like the job and those Chinese kids very much, but I am sure that they learned a lot from you.

I feel almost impossible to believe that Chinese kids wouldn’t respect a normal teacher no matter he/she is a Chinese or American. From your comments, I can see that you have short temper. I have short temper too.

It is OK to argue the things you argued on this web forum; but I hope that you wouldn’t argue them with your Chinese students although some of your arguments may be correct. You can imagine the result of arguing these things with your students. It will not be pretty. Your arguing with British people are not pretty, your arguing with French people are not pretty too.

Every country has some nationalism and problem. Every person including you and me has some pride and shortcoming. Try to ignore the childish arguments of Chinese kids, try to be equal and try to respect them especially when you meet them face by face. Then, you will get respect back.

When I was in USA, I never talked with Americans about politics or Iraq wars face by face. It seemed that the Iraq war doesn’t even exist in our working and studying environment although we watch it and read it all day on TV and web. On this forum I said that I feel that Americans deserve a better president. But if I say this face to face to an American, I am sure that the response will be “it is not the damn business of you foreigners” even if that American doesn’t like Bush too.

The same logic works for Chinese too. We see problem and we complain the problem. But tell you the truth; we don’t like to hear the same complain from a foreigner at least not face by face. If you want to be a beloved teacher, you better tolerate that.

Most Chinese kids are eager to know America and they all know that America is one of the best countries in the world if not the best. They all know that China has lot of problems. But if an American tells them in their faces that America is the best country and China has lot of problems, then in most cases, they will not agree with you and tell you some American problems, like Abu Ghraib.

You want America to support Taiwan's independence. You are entitled for it. But please don't try to convince your Chinese students to agree with you. They wouldn't.

America has so many great things to teach. You really don’t need to argue with your Chinese students to convince them how great America is and how bad China is. Showing some great pictures and telling some great stories about America, you will become the favorite teacher on the campus :)

[Officer of Engineers]

I surely know nothing. We all believed that you know everything.

Far more than you when it comes to military matters, even Chinese military matters.

But your statements show that there are absolute unknowns here. Then, what is the creditability of 30% increasing rate? Why should we believe that it is 30% not 25% or 35%?

The official increase has been officially described as wage and operational increases. It follows that the pensions will also increase (which again is not covered by the official budget) and capital purchases will also increase. You need bullets and gasoline to train as well as deployment. Chinese battalion deployments to Lebanon has to paid by someone.

[ExNavyAmerican]

Sir, in just short three sentences, you gave me two first time surprises. Your exaggeration is pretty much comparable to that of the communist "official truths".

Maybe you're right zeng, but my students told me this is what is taught in Chinese schools.

You want America to support Taiwan's independence. You are entitled for it. But please don't try to convince your Chinese students to agree with you. They wouldn't.

I don't talk about Taiwan to them. It's none of my business. Anyway, it would get me fired.

But if an American tells them in their faces that America is the best country and China has lot of problems, then in most cases, they will not agree with you and tell you some American problems, like Abu Ghraib.

Once again, I don't. But if they ever mentioned Abu Gharib, I'd tell them about the crimes that carry the death penalty in China: namely tax evasion. I'd also tell them about the women who was put under house arrest for trying to go to get a traveler’s visa to the United States.

America has so many great things to teach. You really don’t need to argue with your Chinese students to convince them how great America is and how bad China is. Showing some great pictures and telling some great stories about America, you will become the favorite teacher on the campus

I don't argue. I tell them about America, and say it's a nice, and beautiful place. But I tell them there are good things about China, and I tell them to love, and support their country no matter what. My students seem to like me well enough, but I'm not running a popularity contest: I'm running a classroom.

But if I say this face to face to an American, I am sure that the response will be “it is not the damn business of you foreigners” even if that American doesn’t like Bush too.

Chinese have a bad habit of not being direct. I heard that it is customary to lie rather than be honest for the sake of politeness.

I feel almost impossible to believe that Chinese kids wouldn’t respect a normal teacher no matter he/she is a Chinese or American. From your comments, I can see that you have short temper. I have short temper too.

With my students I'm very calm, and I retain my composure-it happens after nearly 2 decades in the navy-but with politics, the gloves come off. I've started to reform this attitude now that I've taking part in a forum.

After you finished the teaching in China and go back to USA or other country, please be a little bit more moderate on your exaggeration.

What I said isn't exaggeration: it's what is taught in Chinese public school system.

Every country has some nationalism and problem. Every person including you and me has some pride and shortcoming. Try to ignore the childish arguments of Chinese kids, try to be equal and try to respect them especially when you meet them face by face. Then, you will get respect back.

In the statement you're referring to, I had started a new class, and I have already got them respecting me. I'm neither nice, nor mean: I play tit for tat; reward when it's deserved, and punish according to the crime. They respect me now. Anyway, we don't discuss politics: I don't allow it.

Anyway, the point of the matter is that your "official" truths don't hold much stock because China's biggest enemy is facts.

[deadkenny]

There are plenty of 'myths' or 'urban legends' floating around out there. Exnav, if your source for this is your students, then I would suspect that they have been taking the most 'exagerated' or most 'anti-American' versions of stories in order to 'boast' about their country compared to the US.

In particular, what I have heard regarding the 'official' communist version of the Korean war is that the US intended to 'annex' North Korea and there were some air attacks into Chinese territory. Now whether or not these air attacks intentionally, or unintentionally, were in Chinese territory, I do not believe that the 'official' claim is that the US launched a land invasion of China. As far as their claim that they (Communist China) 'won', again it is based on how they view it - they did push back US forces and (re)established a communist North Korea - so it is possible for them to define 'victory' in those terms. Of course it is clear that North Korea's objective was to annex the south, so it's hard to see how North Korea could claim any sort of 'victory'. The UN objective was originally to re-establish South Korea, so they could also claim 'victory' (along with South Korea itself), albeit with somewhat altered borders. However, one must acknowledge that Mac did in fact go somewhat beyond the scope of the original UN mandate by advancing deeply into North Korea as he did.

Similarly for the Communists claiming to have defeated Japan - they did / do claim that they defeated Japan in China (i.e. denying that the Nationalists did anything) but not that the US wasn't responsible for defeating Japan outside of China. I believe the theory that the atomic bombs were dropped more as a 'warning' to the USSR than to actually defeat Japan is common in the west as well (not that I agree), not just in communist China.

[ExNavyAmerican]

Whatever you say deadkenny. You live there after all.

[dave lukins]

ENA Sir, your threads are interesting and to the point. You did say in your Intro that you are "to the point" in a roundabout way:) Your time in China shows and if what you say,knowing you maybe putting your permit at risk then good on you..dont forget to read ,then press!!!:)

[deadkenny]

Whatever you say deadkenny. You live there after all.

Lol. Well perhaps you can clarify whether or not your only source for those statements is your student's claims. There is a difference between students claiming that's what they were taught in school and that being the 'official' position of the government. I'm not denying that's what your student said to you, but what I've read is not consistent with that. I appreciate that you currently live there, whereas I do not. However, the sources for my statements are books and other materials in English. I'm not sure that physically relocating to the PRC would enhance my knowledge of the Korean War.

[ExNavyAmerican]

That's what they claim they were taught, and I got a Chinese/English published textbook, and I read it in black and white. I understand that everyone can know what's going on in China, and that I'm not saying I'm the only authority, but I read it in their textbooks. And as far as the A-bomb goes, we probably didn't do it as a warning because Stalin knew we only had 3, and we had used two. Doesn't make us so formidable does it? And the final point is this, and this goes for the Apollo question too, the conspiarcy theories remain theories in the west, but those theories are official in China.

We helped them in China just as much as they helped themselves in WW2. We organized an army for them (though they didn't use it), we flew supplies over the "hump" when the Burma road was cut and it was an extremely dangerous venture, American support supplied them with their only air force, and the allies reestablished the Burma road by retaking Burma from the Japanesen and by building the Stillwell road from India-an extremely bloody venture. They couldn't have won without the help of, primarily, British, Empire, and American troops.

The Korean War: this is how I've always interpreted it-

The N. Koreans invade S. Korea all the way to Pusan. At this point, the UN gets inolved (note: many nations sent troops there, but American troops constituted the vast majority), General Macarthur takes command, sets up an organized perimiter around the Pusan region, and turns it into armed camp. For the reinvasion, he conducts an end run at Inchon, and blitzkriegs to Pyongyang afterwards. After this, despite the fact that the objective was simply to reinstitute the 38th parallel, the allies decided to retake the peninsula under democracy, and capitalism. Bypassing many pockets of resistance, he invaded north to the yaloo, but with an army approaching their border, the Chinese thought this was the perfect oppurtunity to get involved. The sudden influx of troops forced the allies back all the way south of Seoul. The allies quickly recovered, however, retook Seoul, and established a border that, though wasn't the 38th parallel, it was similar. Actually it was better because it gave the south some land advantages that the North held before. This all happened in about 1 year, and the next two years were spent with bloody fighting along the border: except for the repulse of a single Chinese offensive there were no strategic or decisive battles whatsoever.

What's mentioned up there's the history. So now I'll give my impression. In my opinion, it was a partial victory for the allies, and a complete defeat for the communists. Our original objective was to retake the peninsula under democracy. This changed after our victory at Seoul, and we decided to take the peninsula. The Communists objective was one, and paramount throughout the war: take the entire peninsula. Since they didn't accomplish the war objective, then the only other explanation is that they lost. We had a partial victory because our second objective was to reunite the peninsula, but our primary objective was to reestablish the 38th parallel which we did, and even pushed north of it in all sectors except for the extreme west. That would tell me that we had a partial victory, but, in view of the fact that the north didn't accomplish any objectives of theirs, we won the war in my opinion.