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Loyalty never was an issue in Islam, our understanding is...

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  • Loyalty never was an issue in Islam, our understanding is...

    When a Moslem join a non-Moslem army, how far his pledge of loyalty can go while keeping his primary loyalty to his Islamic faith intact?

    According to Islam this subject can be looked at from two indisputable venues, and both venues has to do with one sole notion that has nothing to do with any pledge of loyalty the Moslem person chose to recite before joining because it has to do with rule of engagement in accordance with what the prophet of Islam stated in the seven century.

    On one hand, we can see that Islam’s early Koran (Meccan version) permit killing infidels who are ONLY oppressors, but then when the (Medina version) kicked in, it abrogated the Meccan version in a way that make the words “ONLY OPRESSORS” hard to define, and if we scan the history of the battle that Islam engaged in, we can see that this “ONLY OPRESSORS” definition was intact in Mecca when the prophet of Islam only killed the Meccan leaders who opposed the new faith while it was as loose term as it undermined the verse of (Ah’lu el Ketab) the people of the book, and instead he eliminated the entire Jewish tribes and not their leaders and Rabies as he did in Mecca to the Pagan leaders (Non-G_D’s believers) who are more suitable as oppressors to Islam than the Jews not only because they don’t believe in the same G_D, but also because it was stated in that same Koran used as a definition guide.

    And that brings me back to today’s issues with Islam and makes me ask those Moslems who are living in the entire western crescent, why the hell you are still using that Meccan Version here though you know very well that entire version was totally abrogated fifteen century ago, and not being used in the entire Moslem world?

    Well, you don’t have to tell me here because it happens that I know, as much as you do.

    You are doing this to make people like GWB say Islam means peace, and you are doing it and acting by it to deceive the oppressor westerner individual to think bad about the whistle blowers like me and the people who really know what you are made of, isn’t it?

    Or else, why you are doing it, Islam?

    Why the hell I am asking all these questions?

    Because I know, and as much as you do, that no pledge of loyalty can ever rise above the pledge of loyalty to your Islamic faith.

    Sure you will fight with us as long as we are fighting infidels like us, but when it comes to fighting Moslems, you can’t do except what you did when you joined The French Legion Etranger when the Moroccan Moslem Soldiers stood still during the Battle of “Miss’a’loon with the Syrian Moslems army and preferred to die as Martyrs than losing heaven if they kill Moslems according to the Koran, isn’t it?

    (The French Army lost that battle and humiliated to the bone when the entire battalion was beheaded by the knife)

    Now let’s analyze our today’s Moslem recruits.

    As American, French, or any other non-Moslem nationality army, can Moslem recruits fight for their country and forget about their pledge to Islam?

    I say not only it can’t be, but also for us to open this door and send these people to fight their Moslem brothers is a religious discrimination because if we have known better, we would’ve known that we are sending these people directly to hell in accordance with their faith, isn’t it?


    Now you tell me.


    Jack the human.

  • #2
    Originally posted by human
    [SIZE=3]When a Moslem join a non-Moslem army, how far his pledge of loyalty can go while keeping his primary loyalty to his Islamic faith intact?
    I don't know about other Non Moslem Armies, but I have total faith in the Indian Moslem soldiers of my country.

    They are as good or as bad as any other Indian.

    As far as Indian Moslem soldiers are concerned, I can vouch for them with my life.

    They have won also the Highest gallantry awards (PVC) of the Indian Army and that too against Pakistan (an Islamic Republic). They have kicked Pakistan in the teeth for their homeland, INDIA. What more proof is required?

    The very thought of doubting Moslem soldiers of INDIA (though not mentioned in the post specifically of India) makes me MAD!

    I couldn't care less about the loyalty of Moslem soldiers of other countries.
    Last edited by Ray; 13 Oct 04,, 17:20.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ray
      I don't know about other Non Moslem Armies, but I have total faith in the Indian Moslem soldiers of my country.

      They are as good or as bad as any other Indian.

      As far as Indian Moslem soldiers are concerned, I can vouch for them with my life.

      They have won also the Highest gallantry awards (PVC) of the Indian Army and that too against Pakistan (an Islamic Republic). They have kicked Pakistan in the teeth for their homeland, INDIA. What more proof is required?

      The very thought of doubting Moslem soldiers of INDIA (though not mentioned in the post specifically of India) makes me MAD!

      I couldn't care less about the loyalty of Moslem soldiers of other countries.


      Thank you for this insight Ray which is the ultimate proves that no mater how much one knows, he can’t say that he knows it all; therefore I fell that, I am certainly not qualified now to debate my point from within your point about the Moslem soldiers of INDIA, but I will be happy to research it and get back to you on that, in the mean time, I will appreciate your input, if you can elaborate on that with information that help me understand it better, since my own experience details totally different facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by human
        Thank you for this insight Ray which is the ultimate proves that no mater how much one knows, he can’t say that he knows it all; therefore I fell that, I am certainly not qualified now to debate my point from within your point about the Moslem soldiers of INDIA, but I will be happy to research it and get back to you on that, in the mean time, I will appreciate your input, if you can elaborate on that with information that help me understand it better, since my own experience details totally different facts.

        Human or anyone else,

        I am interested in knowledge.

        You are most welcomed to contact me at [email protected]

        I will try my best to help, but I may not be perfect as google.

        Try checking the Battle of Daruchian or Abdul Hamid on google.

        Between you and me, in war I had a Moslem orderly. I vouch with my life for his loyalty.

        Christ, it peeves me when I see some on this forum stating wrong things about Indian and its secularism!

        Yet, I will agree, nothing is perfect.

        Even in Pakistan, they are killing each other Shias and Sunnis. Daily there is some crap in the newspaper about them and bombs and other stupidity. They are both Moslems.

        But that doesn't mean that ALL of them are WILD.


        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

        HAKUNA MATATA

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ray
          Human or anyone else,

          I am interested in knowledge.

          You are most welcomed to contact me at [email protected]

          I will try my best to help, but I may not be perfect as google.

          Try checking the Battle of Daruchian or Abdul Hamid on google.

          Between you and me, in war I had a Moslem orderly. I vouch with my life for his loyalty.

          Christ, it peeves me when I see some on this forum stating wrong things about Indian and its secularism!

          Yet, I will agree, nothing is perfect.

          Even in Pakistan, they are killing each other Shias and Sunnis. Daily there is some crap in the newspaper about them and bombs and other stupidity. They are both Moslems.

          But that doesn't mean that ALL of them are WILD.


          Ray alone,

          No doubts that it doesn’t take too much research to realize that the nation that blossomed, bosomed, and blessed by the two most influential humanistic intellects on the face of the earth was once off limit when it comes to the loyalty of its citizens, but certainly Pakistan, Kashmir, and Bangladesh, which was part of India at one time, proved that Tagore was more idealistic in his humanistic approach to politic; while Gandhi’s wheel though it still spinning that loyalty up until today, no one can foretell what the future wheel of loyalty will hold; however, let’s hope for the best.

          Though I was fascinated by the contrast between the two socio-political philosophies, I have no doubt what so ever in my mind that the secret of the Indian citizen’s loyalty fall solely today between the Indian wheel the Mahatma spanned in the face of the world. Rabindranath Tagore, and Mahatma Gandhi’s sociological empire of citizenship’s culture is no doubts as solid with its children’s loyalty as loyalty itself, and not only you, but after what I researched, even, I can vouch with my life for the Indian’s Moslem’s loyalty as long as that community keep on preserving its noble Indian tradition.



          However, I wish I can say the same about the rest.
          Last edited by human; 13 Oct 04,, 20:47.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by human

            On one hand, we can see that Islam’s early Koran (Meccan version) permit killing infidels who are ONLY oppressors, but then when the (Medina version) kicked in, it abrogated the Meccan version in a way that make the words “ONLY OPRESSORS” hard to define,
            There are no different Quraans, except by translation to English and some other languages.

            The Quraan has never changed after it was put together by the 1st Calif.
            You could be talking about the Shaaria.

            In the name of Islam, you can only retaliate, not attack.


            Originally posted by human
            Because I know, and as much as you do, that no pledge of loyalty can ever rise above the pledge of loyalty to your Islamic faith.
            As long as it doesn't result in opression and wrongdoing why should any pledge come higher than ones faith in hi/her religion.


            Originally posted by human
            As American, French, or any other non-Moslem nationality army, can Moslem recruits fight for their country and forget about their pledge to Islam?
            Well, why not.The pledge to Islam more generally means Killing bad people and not just muslims. Yes, it is a major sin to kill a muslim but God will judge by intention in most instances.

            I think you are quoting from a haadith or shaaria but most definitely not from the Quraan.

            The Quraan has never changed. Translations to English have been regularly updated though to be more in line with the original meaning.
            "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty". [Sir Francis]

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by human

              However, I wish I can say the same about the rest.
              Human, the muslims in the middle East are only around something like 40 million (not too sure). That is a small amount to the 1.3 billion muslims on Earth.

              You can say that only about a select few.
              "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty". [Sir Francis]

              Comment


              • #8
                Dear Human,

                This is the belief in the Quraan :


                "Never should a believer Kill a believer; but
                if it so happens by mistake, compensation is due:
                If one kills a believer, it is ordained that he free a slave
                and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it
                freely.

                If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, The freeing of a slave is enough.......

                for those who find this beyond their means is prescribed a fast for 2 months running by way of repentence to God., For God hath all knowledge and wisdom."

                Quraan [4 : 92 ] (A.yusuf ali pg 209)


                I hope this answers your Question as to what a muslim can do if he fights another muslim :)
                "It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty". [Sir Francis]

                Comment

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