Do G4 have a case.

[Tronic]

Democratic; who cares?

I guess you don't, many do... Its about moral ideals....

Two nations on it ain't and the YSSR not being democratic had more influence then India around the world. That is not a yardstick.

whats your point? USSR was a superpower...

Secular; who cares? Communists had a state religion of sorts which bullied around the other faiths in their nation.

And thats a good thing on Communism's part?

India wasn't on the orginal SC so that's why it ain't on it now and probably won't ever get on it.

Actually, no, you're wrong. India has been offered a permanent seat in the UNSC; we want Veto powers to come attached, don't know if its going to happen though, but without Veto, I doubt India will go for UNSC permanent seat.

Plus the KMT was on the victors list as an independant nation while India was basically a colony.

Whats KMT? And plus, yes, I already said, that is one of the reasons why Indian contribution is neglected, because we fought under british flag.

The Philippines also fought but got no seat, plenty of nations got no seat after the war.

There is a big difference. India commited one of the largest armies to the war, and commited huge amounts of resources. Cannot possibly compare it with Phillippines...

They had more troops in China then facing India.

And Indian army was deployed against Germany, Japan and Italy.

More Chinese died then Indians by a wide margin.

Agreed.

[Officer of Engineers]

Tronic, the simple reason why India's neglected is also the reason why Canada (and even Mongolia) was neglected. We were not there in the backrooms to plea our case until the deal was done. How else do you explain France and China? Despite what China did, she was nothing more than a 1945 Ethiopia. (Well, some said Madame Chiang Kei Shek screwed every politician to get China in. Don't know how true that is but she was ... shall we say that even you don't have to beg).

The deed is done. It's over and I really don't understand what's the fuss about it. There's nothing inherantly fair about how the UN was created. Them's the rules and them's the game. Play the game according to their rules or go home.

And what's more, considering the treatment General Jetley got in Sierra Leonne after he saved the UN's bacon, why expect any better?

[Tronic]

China has always had veto power and has always been a permanant member of the SC, ever since the inception of the UN in 1945.

The nationalist government sat on the SC with veto power until the 70s, then as the world recognized the communist government as the legitimate representation of China, it was transfered to the CCP.

China's seat as a permanant member of the SC with veto power was not added in the 70s, if that's what you meant.

By China, I mean CCP, not Taiwan.

[Tronic]

Tronic, the simple reason why India's neglected is also the reason why Canada (and even Mongolia) was neglected. We were not there in the backrooms to plea our case until the deal was done. How else do you explain France and China? Despite what China did, she was nothing more than a 1945 Ethiopia. (Well, some said Madame Chiang Kei Shek screwed every politician to get China in. Don't know how true that is but she was ... shall we say that even you don't have to beg).

The deed is done. It's over and I really don't understand what's the fuss about it. There's nothing inherantly fair about how the UN was created. Them's the rules and them's the game. Play the game according to their rules or go home.

And what's more, considering the treatment General Jetley got in Sierra Leonne after he saved the UN's bacon, why expect any better?

Yes, your words do hold true. and Yes, you now seriously got me thinking on France now, lol. But I wont take it any further... not like its going to get us Veto already...

[Tronic]

The permement members of the UNSC today can all do the following design and build tanks- submarines- jet fighters- en masse,

Well, although India is still very young in the field on indegenious technology, we have proven we can build our own tanks, jets(as far back as the 50s with the HF-24 Marut) and now even submarines, and even the aircraft carrier which is currently underway!

go to space,

zrav, bro, India IS in space... we've been in space since the 80s... ;)

all have literacy above 90%

30% more to go, and we'll be there; you gaurantee, we'll get the Veto then? lol...

and GDP's above 750 milion USD.

Indian GDP is already more then 750 million USD. And i'm not talking in terms of PPP...

India is almost there in tems of economy

Almost? Indian GDP is more then Russia's which happens to be a P5 nation. ;)

but is nowhere close on on the other fronts

not true!

[zraver]

How many of the permanent members could do that until 3 decades ago? When was the last time Britain or France sent a man into space? Besides, how many permanent members could claim to do all that just 3 decades ago?

In 1948 with the exception of the USA, all the other members of the P5 were still wrecked by WW2. Since that time they have all gone onto do those things I listed, India hasn't. Granted France got the Marshal Plan, and Russia got the plunder of eastern Europe and China's industrial basin. But China started with less than India and has now surpassed her in every area.

Europe may not be concentratign on putting men in space, but her probes to other worlds are now at least as important as NASA's.

India can barely build a tank, can't build planes, modern submarines and lags behind economically and in literacy. How exaclty does she deserve to be part of the P5? Beucase she built nukes in defiance of the world and started a nuclear arms rac eon the subcontinet? Well then lets add North Korea, Pakistan, and Israel as well. Ohh wait North Korea, Pakistan and Israel can build tanks in signifigant numbers, India cant. Israel can also build planes and submarines.

India's sole claim rest on the size of it's exploding population, and that is simply not enough. When she can also build tanks, planes and submarines and gets into orbit, and pushes past the 90% mark on literacy. Then and only then will she have earned the right to make the P5 into the P6

OoE, France did the best she could, she jsut tried to fight the wrong war. Russia mad ethe same mistake and more Russians marche dinto captivity than Frenchmen. The differance is Russia had the strategic depth to learn form her mistakes, France didn't.

FF, FFI units were active on the allied side form the begining of the war to the end of it.

[Officer of Engineers]

What about Vichy France?

[gunnut]

By China, I mean CCP, not Taiwan.

CCP was not offered permanant SC seat with veto power, the Chinese was. Taiwan was never offered even a UN seat as it is not recognized as an independent nation. Think of CCP as a different ruling party representing China.

Truman and the Democrats were in power when the UN was formed in 1945. Bush and the Republicans sent their guy to the UN in 2004. Are you saying the US was just offered the SC seat with veto power? Or are you saying only the Democrats represent the US on the security council? Different faction. Both representing the US.

[gunnut]

I guess France was in because of the old imperial secret club left over from the 19th century. France still held substancial colonial holdings after WW2. Also the US and Britain felt bad for the Frenchies.

UN:
US formed it.
UK earned a seat.
Soviet Union earned a seat.
China earned a seat.
France was along for the ride.

[Tronic]

India can barely build a tank,

Arjun is barely a tank?

can't build planes,

HF-24 Marut
LCA Tejas

Pray me, if these aren't planes, then what are they???

modern submarines

Have our own naval nuclear plant to build nuclear submarines; right now building foriegn subs in India, but Indian subs are also underway.

and lags behind economically

How so? Indian GDP is higher then P5 Russias'

and in literacy.

given.

Beucase she built nukes in defiance of the world and started a nuclear arms rac eon the subcontinet?

arms race? heh, Indian nukes were in response to Chinese nukes; A global arms race started the day the first nuke was built.

Ohh wait North Korea, Pakistan and Israel can build tanks in signifigant numbers, India cant.

So says you... Licensing production isn;t exactly building own tanks; India had been licensing production on the T-72s, Vijyantas, long time before North Korea or Pakistan even thought of building tank factories. And Arjun is not a tank? First time hearing this...

[Tronic]

CCP was not offered permanant SC seat with veto power, the Chinese was. Taiwan was never offered even a UN seat as it is not recognized as an independent nation. Think of CCP as a different ruling party representing China.

Truman and the Democrats were in power when the UN was formed in 1945. Bush and the Republicans sent their guy to the UN in 2004. Are you saying the US was just offered the SC seat with veto power? Or are you saying only the Democrats represent the US on the security council? Different faction. Both representing the US.

Ok, but the Chinese nationalists which were offered the seat during the 40s all hopped to Taiwan...

[Officer of Engineers]

And they kept the veto for 30 years while in Taiwan.

[Tronic]

Yes, I'm guessing though, they couldn't use it... I mean, wouldn't CCP hop on their back?

[Officer of Engineers]

They've successfully blocked CCP entry into any International bodies for that long using the veto. It was not until the US-PRC thaw that the US began the procedure to shift the recognition from Taipei back to Peking.

[zraver]

Arjun is barely a tank?

No India is barely able to build it

[quote]HF-24 Marut
LCA Tejas

Pray me, if these aren't planes, then what are they???[quote]

HF-24 a thing that might have been, but India didn't follow through and use oit to build an Aerosapce indiustry worthy of the name and now 40 years laters the LCA Tejas might enter prodcution in 2010.

arms race? heh, Indian nukes were in response to Chinese nukes; A global arms race started the day the first nuke was built.

China's nukes were not aimed at India. They used old style directional silos and caves that telegraphed thier targets.

Have our own naval nuclear plant to build nuclear submarines; right now building foriegn subs in India, but Indian subs are also underway.

Ok, so she jsut started building them 8 days ago forgive me for my info being a week out of date. But can she complete the Scorpenes?

How so? Indian GDP is higher then P5 Russias'

CIA Wolrd factbook figures

India- $719.8 billion (2005 est.) 720 per person, public debt of 53.8% of GDP

Russia- $740.7 billion (2005 est.) 11,000 per person, public debt of 12.9% of GDP