SU-35's First International Customer-VENEZUELA??

[PubFather]

KS-172 is already under development under the Joint-collaboration between Russia and India.

From a report:

Any firm evidence, beyond a 2004 article that there is continuing development on this missile?

Note in the article that you posted that BARS has a detection range for AWACS of circa 300 km, its tracking is approx 200 kms. So the 400 kms range is purely hypothetical, as is the missile - remember, this missile started its gestation in 1993

[Dreadnought]

If they'll update their radars ( I mean Russians ), then its not a real problem.
MiG-31 and MiG-22 were able to watch SR-71 Blackbird and F-117 and shoot them if needed without even beeng detected by the enemy planes.

To be honest I have seen Raptor once in flight (actually a pair) and every country out there according to her stats will be hard pressed to even compete with Raptor in the field.;)

[Archer]

Are you sure about that?

Why respond to flamebait?

[MarquezRazor]

Any firm evidence, beyond a 2004 article that there is continuing development on this missile?

Note in the article that you posted that BARS has a detection range for AWACS of circa 300 km, its tracking is approx 200 kms. So the 400 kms range is purely hypothetical, as is the missile - remember, this missile started its gestation in 1993

What do you mean by a "firm" report?

Heres a report from Janes...also dating 2004...

JANE'S MISSILES AND ROCKETS - MAY 01, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

India and Russia negotiate co-operation on KS-172 AAM
David C Isby

Russia and India are currently negotiating a long-range air-to-air missile (AAM) project as a follow-on to the joint Brahmos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile programme, writes David C Isby. The Novator Design Bureau in Yekaterinburg is developing a long-range missile designated the KS-172 or R-172 (see JMR March 2004, p1). The proposed negotiations would make available Indian investment and technical assistance.

Novator's proposed partner, India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), is currently working on its own beyond-visual-range AAM, the Astra. A variant of the KS-172 could be used to arm India's Su-35 fighter force for use against high-value standoff targets such as radar surveillance aircraft and flight-refuelling tankers.

About the BARS..some sources suggest that the detection range for an AWACS type target is 300kms.

And heres a May,2006 report.

Indo-Russian R-172 bvraam jv (aerial sniper)


Author : IDRW TEAM


After the much hyped success of the Indo-Russian joint venture pj-10 (bramos) anti-ship cruise missile ,Indo-Russian scientist and defense manufacturer have teemed up to resurrect the formidable Russian Novatur R-172 /KS-172 the project was “Temporarily frozen” due to lack of fund after the collapse of the soviet union in 1990's ,Russia's proposed partner is slated to be India's DR&DO increasing number of awacs in Indian subcontinent has raised alarm bells in New Delhi and in rise in induction of Chinese awacs in plaaf and paf orders of erieye awacs and Hawk eye 2000 proposed to the paf by the united state ,this anti-awacs will have su-30mki has its launch platform ,according to what idrw team as learned through sources it is estimated that the range of this anti-awacs bvraam will be any where between 300 to 400 km ,ks-172 was inti ally to arm the Mig 1.42 mfi ,Iaf will certainly have su-30 mki has the launch platform with its mini-awacs capability and will be guided by Iaf”s phalcon awacs which will be entering the force in 2007 it will engage targets flying at altitude of 3 to 30000 and will be able to manovering upto 12g ,it also will be intergrated with Indian navies mig29k which will make it to attack maritime patrol aircraft of the enemy

And no..No Russian Official confirmation.

[PubFather]

What do you mean by a "firm" report?

Heres a report from Janes...also dating 2004...

And heres a May,2006 report.

Fine - it would be nice to have something authorative and definitive - such as a projected IOC (or ISD) for the missile.

About the BARS..some sources suggest that the detection range for an AWACS type target is 300kms.

As I stated in my original post - I accept that BARS may well be able to detect an AWACs at 300kms. Detection is not identification, nor does it mean tracking/targeting. With a missile of this range - you'd better be damn sure its not a 747 that you are engaging.

And no..No Russian Official confirmation.

As I thought - it remains a hypothetical missile until we see some more concrete data on its development.

[MarquezRazor]

Fine - it would be nice to have something authorative and definitive - such as a projected IOC (or ISD) for the missile.
.

Well..those are not available for the moment...and whats available is not too bad either.

As I thought - it remains a hypothetical missile until we see some more concrete data on its development.

The reports for 2004 upto the current date clearly show that the missile is in development.And some of the sources(including some Indian sources) are fairly authentic.So its hardly "hypothetical"

I accept that BARS may well be able to detect an AWACs at 300kms. Detection is not identification, nor does it mean tracking/targeting.

Tracking range of BARS for an AWACS sized target is stated as 200 kms.

With a missile of this range - you'd better be damn sure its not a 747 that you are engaging.

The friendly AWACS will make sure of that.

[Archer]

Good old USA. Never honouring any international commitment.

C'mon, this was unnecessary as well. Considering how much love Chavez has for the US, its to be expected they'd respond.

[MarquezRazor]

C'mon, this was unnecessary as well. .

Yeah..you are correct

but it would have been better if the line of reasoning was...

Considering how much love Chavez has for the US, its to be expected they'd respond.

as you pointed out.

And yeah..I shd try to avoid flamebaits...

[highsea]

Why respond to flamebait?

The FLAMEBAIT was gamercube's post #10.

[PubFather]

Well..those are not available for the moment...and whats available is not too bad either.

The reports for 2004 upto the current date clearly show that the missile is in development.And some of the sources(including some Indian sources) are fairly authentic.So its hardly "hypothetical"

So, a missile under development but when and where it will ever see service isnt known. It hasnt even been test-fired, so therefore 10 years before IOC? 15 years?

Define "fairly authentic"? Until they are "authentic" I prefer "hypothetical"

Tracking range of BARS for an AWACS sized target is stated as 200 kms.

As I stated in a post a while back... :sigh: Whereabouts - do you think - that the escorts of the AWACs would be in such a scenario? About 200 kms away, waiting for the non-LPI MKI to come in range of their own BVR missiles...

The friendly AWACS will make sure of that.

If one is present.... The presence of an AWACs is not a given - for e.g, in a naval engagement.

[gamercube]

The FLAMEBAIT was gamercube's post #10.

That wasn't flamebait. I was merely giving an informed opinion on things relevant to the article. I followed it up with a news article to back my assertion.

[MarquezRazor]

So, a missile under development but when and where it will ever see service isnt known.

yes.its under development...and something under deveopment is hardly "hypothetical"

It hasnt even been test-fired,

It has been testfired before the program was stopped due to lack of funds..and those test fires were successful...

I prefer "hypothetical"

Please yourself.


Anyway..I was just providing the available data so as to make an informed judgement.But I realise that what a person chooses to believe is above all the logic one can provide...so thats just a sheer waste of time.

[PubFather]

yes.its under development...and something under deveopment is hardly "hypothetical"

Lots of weaponry is under development, electric armour for tanks for eg. If it never makes it into production, and there is no clear program to bring to production, that makes it hypothetical....

It has been testfired before the program was stopped due to lack of funds..and those test fires were successful...

Evidence? When did they do the test firings? Under what circumstances? etc.... define what you mean.

Anyway..I was just providing the available data so as to make an informed judgement.But I realise that what a person chooses to believe is above all the logic one can provide...so thats just a sheer waste of time.

The problem, is your inability to read effectively. Despite your little hissy fit - I merely dispute:
A) The effectiveness of the missile
B) The likelyhood of it ever seeing service, especially in meaningful numbers.


You do need to work on your understanding of nuance in text - rather than a prima facia reading of it..

See the Janes quote below that you originally posted:

Russia and India are currently negotiating a long-range air-to-air missile (AAM) project as a follow-on to the joint Brahmos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile programme, writes David C Isby. The Novator Design Bureau in Yekaterinburg is developing a long-range missile designated the KS-172 or R-172 (see JMR March 2004, p1). The proposed negotiations would make available Indian investment and technical assistance.

Note that even the negociations are "proposed". I will not accept sources that I don't trust, nor will I accept them unless they are authoritive and precise.

Cheery Bye

[highsea]

That wasn't flamebait. I was merely giving an informed opinion on things relevant to the article. I followed it up with a news article to back my assertion.

Bullsh*t. You don't know a damned thing about it, so your opinion obviously wasn't "informed". Spares and logistics contracts are not open ended. They are very specific wrt what is included and the timeframe. Venezuala did not have a contract with the US, that's why they were trying to go to Israel, which we blocked as per our agreements with that country.

And it's the second time you have posted this BS, first time was in this thread:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...&postcount=136

The US has historically been a country which befriends someone only when they need them, and after they're done, discard them like a fly from a cup of milk. They're opportunistic and they cannot be trusted. They break international agreements with impunity......and even the allies that they do have, like Britain, Australia etc, are more like their obedient servants than real friends. In fact, every country that enters into an alliance with them is eventually reduced to the status of an "ally" (read: obedient servant).

Not only do you insult the US, you insult our allies. So screw you.

I ignored it once, I chose not to ignore it a second time.

You want to engage in an insult contest against each other's country, so be it. Two can play at that game.

[MarquezRazor]

Lots of weaponry is under development, electric armour for tanks for eg. If it never makes it into production, and there is no clear program to bring to production, that makes it hypothetical....

Sure lots of weaponry is under development...but comparing all of them as equal is I think can be done only under the influence of alcohol..or may be if you are really ignorant...

Evidence? When did they do the test firings? Under what circumstances?

What sort of evidence are you looking for...all that available has been already given which can be used to make a decision...oh wait..probably you wanted a guided tour of their factory with a briefing by the chief..sorry...

btw...looks like I have been providing all the data from which a probable assumption can be made...and all you are doing is rant...

Do I see a pattern here..?

The problem, is your inability to read effectively. I merely dispute:

Sure..and your level of dispute is this...

Despite your little hissy fit

A) The effectiveness of the missile
B) The likelyhood of it ever seeing service, especially in meaningful numbers.

Sure Novator co. would like to have you in service...since your thinking is clearly better than them..and they are already spending large amount of money on its development..while you seem to think thats just worthless.

Note that even the negociations are "proposed". I will not accept sources that I don't trust, nor will I accept them unless they are authoritive and precise.

I also provided a current report from May06 which says...

Indo-Russian R-172 bvraam jv (aerial sniper)
Author : IDRW TEAM


After the much hyped success of the Indo-Russian joint venture pj-10 (bramos) anti-ship cruise missile ,Indo-Russian scientist and defense manufacturer have teemed up to resurrect the formidable Russian Novatur R-172 /KS-172

So i guess I should be saying this to you...

The problem, is your inability to read effectively. Despite your little hissy fit - I merely dispute:

Cheery Bye

...and the same favours extended to you..