Samurai against knight

[astralis]

gunnut,

sure. but why would the insurgent decide to swing a knife instead of just using a firearm? AFAIK the only reason why you'd want to use a knife is to stay quiet, and even then you have to slice the guy's windpipe first.

[gunnut]

gunnut,

sure. but why would the insurgent decide to swing a knife instead of just using a firearm? AFAIK the only reason why you'd want to use a knife is to stay quiet, and even then you have to slice the guy's windpipe first.

Not every insurgent carries a rifle or pistol. They are not all well organized nor well equiped.

[sappersgt]

sapper sarge,

i understand how a LEO would have to deal with knives...but how does modern day combat suddenly turn into a knife fight? ie what situations suddenly take away the gun's range, firepower, speed?

Only when something has gone terribly wrong. I have run up against troops with bayoneted rifles however. During some survey work I had a surreal moment when I was ordered to "Fix Bayonets" to an old Enfield.

All of my knife "incidents" were either as a civilian, on pass or leave involving other civilians. In Morocco I stood off one would be mugger by pulling a replica Gladius I had just purchased out of my backpack. I wasn't very sharp, I doubt if it could cut bread. In the end it was confiscated by the local police. I'd owned it for maybe a half day.

[gunnut]

Only when something has gone terribly wrong. I have run up against troops with bayoneted rifles however. During some survey work I had a surreal moment when I was ordered to "Fix Bayonets" to an old Enfield.

All of my knife "incidents" were either as a civilian, on pass or leave involving other civilians. In Morocco I stood off one would be mugger by pulling a replica Gladius I had just purchased out of my backpack. I wasn't very sharp, I doubt if it could cut bread. In the end it was confiscated by the local police. I'd owned it for maybe a half day.

Sounds like trouble follows you everywhere you go...

[astralis]

sapper,

Only when something has gone terribly wrong.

yeah, that's what i figured. it's gotta be pretty bad if things go hand-to-hand.

I have run up against troops with bayoneted rifles however. During some survey work I had a surreal moment when I was ordered to "Fix Bayonets" to an old Enfield.

man, this particular bit i have just got to hear. IIRC, weren't you also in some situations where it didn't even get to a knife fight but literal hand-to-hand fighting?? it boggles the mind.

[Albany Rifles]

2 words


coaxial mounted....

[sappersgt]

"Hop aboard the train..."

Sounds like trouble follows you everywhere you go...

Hey, who could turn down a chance to ride the "Train to Marrakesh"? You know, like the song! Curiosity has taken me to parts of some towns where trouble was highly likely. At least that's what the police said. In retrospect they were probably right. I still say that thing outside the disco in Melillia wasn't really my fault, I was just walking those Irish girls home.:

[Blue]

Thankfully, you had more skill than them.

Rednecks with about 5 teeth apiece and mullets. Stereotyping is usually accurate.

Imagine one of those attackers being half as good as the Nigerian.

I still think I could have taken them. Instead of disarming, I would have went for the knockout. However, in this instance, I didn't even know I had been cut. I thought he had just made a glancing blow on my chin. I executed a by the book technique, exactly how I was taught(except for falling on top of the guy because I was tipsy). The second delayed his attack and was unarmed. He hesitated I guess because he just saw his buddy get tossed in the air, disarmed, his right arm snapped at the elbow, and a knife plunged into the back of his right leg(right in the bone too! ouch!) I regained my feet just as he decided to attack and ended up doing the same thing to him, sans the stabbing. With them both writhing in pain and crying on the ground, the third guy just puts his hands up and says he doesn't want any of what they just got. I walked away, realized I was cut, but I was going to a friends house after hours. By the time I got there, I guess it was worse than I thought. My friends wife cleaned me up and stuck it back together. She did a good job. The scar is fine and clean and covered mostly by my beard.

I knew you would back me up :)

When you're right, you're right. :)

Do you think your Nigerian would not have adapted and gone for the femoral artery and collapsed his own body onto your gun side as a block?

One of the first things he taught us is to know when to use the knife as an offensive weapon or a defensive weapon. His first tactic in a defensive face off was to conceal both hands behind his back, so you wouldn't know which one was going to let fly with the blade. I think if he was attacking with the knife and I was on the ground producing a firearm, he would have ran like hell. He may have cut my legs because that would be what i am defending with while deploying my offensive weapon, but odds are best that he is dead and I have to make a tourniquet.

Except for specific attacks like a brain stem stab in sentry removal the slash does much more damage (blood loss, cut tendons shock, pain and dropped entrails). The human body is self sealing and a stabbing victim will live for quite a lone time, thats one reason stabbing murders often have such high stab counts.

Size of the blade has a lot to do with as well. Most knife assaults are usually with a lockback pocket knife 2-4" blade. In the hands of a pro, that would be deadly. A frenzied, often scared attacker, they just cut you all over.

From what I've seen the Russian's like to throw things. No first hand experiance on my part, and it might just have been PR displays. But why throw away a perfectly good weapon?

Because they were damn good at it and rarely carried just one. Some of them carried a friggin throwing axe that was also handy for preparing chicken!

I don't know if it would really work in combat, but they could throw it hard enough and accurately, out to about 30ft, to go through a 3/4 thick piece of plywood. I picked up some pointers and now annoy my wife by throwing different knives into the dart board in the garage. Its fun, and is a unique skill, but I don't think I would ever do it in a combat situation, unless I needed to throw the attacker off balance while I drew a gun or went for a larger/different weapon. I would not expect it to stick.

Given a choice I want a double edged long solid tang

I carry a couple of cheapo chinese made folders. 4" blades, one is a tanto style. They are last resort defense weapons or for cutting my steak when the restaurants flatware proves too dull. I'd rather have my gun.;)

I got a lesson like that from a Spanish Legionaire. I had been sparring and winning so upped the ante with a knife. Most of them tended to favor the knife too much leaving themselves vulnerable. Then came the Legionaire. It was all I could do to keep from getting skewered much less take the fight to him. I bowed out to his superior skill saying if any of them ran into a guy that to either shoot em or run.

I'm glad you related that, because without the knife, we were kicking the Nigerians butt!

The two that dominated our group of about 30 guys in H2H was my buddy Jeff and myself. He was a greco-roman wrestler from about 5 years old and a state champ. I had studied muay-thai and aikido. The only way I could beat Jeff was to get a knockout punch or kick in right off. If he got hold of me, we went to ground and he would eventually dominate. He was the only one to take down the Nigerian+knife too. He threw sand in his face and rushed him. Damn dirty fightin if you ask me.

[Blue]

sure. but why would the insurgent decide to swing a knife instead of just using a firearm?

I gotta get in on this one too! Because he ain't gotta gun!! They throw rocks for cryin out loud! Heck, a man with a knife and a bicycle is mobile infantry!

AFAIK the only reason why you'd want to use a knife is to stay quiet, and even then you have to slice the guy's windpipe first.

Quiet...yes. Windpipe first, no.

Its even in the handbook IIRC.

[zraver]

AFAIK the only reason why you'd want to use a knife is to stay quiet, and even then you have to slice the guy's windpipe first.

Brain stem stab, if your close enough to give a colombian neck tie then use one hand to grab the jaw while covering the mouth and pull it up and back. The knife hand then inserts the knife through the bottom of the jaw/ top of the throat off center from the windpipe and heads straight for the brain: no fuss, no muss.

[zraver]

Quiet...yes. Windpipe first, no.

Its even in the handbook IIRC.

The biggest difference between dead and dying is the noise the dying make. The faster you make them dead, the quieter they are. Slshing throats is noisy unless you go deep enough to reach the juggular, hard to do becuase of the cartiledge and risky to the attacker. If the juggular isn't cut the man will gurgle, flop around and drum his feet. Plus then there is a massive pool of blood to slide on or get infected by.

[zraver]

One of the first things he taught us is to know when to use the knife as an offensive weapon or a defensive weapon. His first tactic in a defensive face off was to conceal both hands behind his back, so you wouldn't know which one was going to let fly with the blade. I think if he was attacking with the knife and I was on the ground producing a firearm, he would have ran like hell. He may have cut my legs because that would be what i am defending with while deploying my offensive weapon, but odds are best that he is dead and I have to make a tourniquet.

I don't know the guy, however.... Running is slower than a bullet, I end up with my back to you, and once your gun is drawn I never have the initiave again. Seems to me the only real option would be to press the attack, using my body to try and pin your arm long enough for me to get in a disabling attack. If I could sever the femoral then I only have to survive longer than you for a very short time and even if you do get me, your dead. Sever the artery and it retracts and you'll never close it.

Size of the blade has a lot to do with as well. Most knife assaults are usually with a lockback pocket knife 2-4" blade. In the hands of a pro, that would be deadly. A frenzied, often scared attacker, they just cut you all over.

True but a 2" folder can leathally spill guts on the non-obese but not penetrate to vital organs in the chest with a stab.

Because they were damn good at it and rarely carried just one. Some of them carried a friggin throwing axe that was also handy for preparing chicken!

I don't know if it would really work in combat, but they could throw it hard enough and accurately, out to about 30ft, to go through a 3/4 thick piece of plywood. I picked up some pointers and now annoy my wife by throwing different knives into the dart board in the garage. Its fun, and is a unique skill, but I don't think I would ever do it in a combat situation, unless I needed to throw the attacker off balance while I drew a gun or went for a larger/different weapon. I would not expect it to stick.

Boards don't evade.

I carry a couple of cheapo chinese made folders. 4" blades, one is a tanto style. They are last resort defense weapons or for cutting my steak when the restaurants flatware proves too dull. I'd rather have my gun.;)

I'm getting too old and settled to belong to the cult of the knife anymore. If I carry a blade at all anymore its my spiderco rescue with a serrated sheeps foot blade. Nearly worthless in combat since its designed to save lives not take them.

[astralis]

Quiet...yes. Windpipe first, no.

aaaaannd that's why i'm a USAF-certified chairborne warrior, lol.

[Blue]

I don't know the guy, however.... Running is slower than a bullet, I end up with my back to you, and once your gun is drawn I never have the initiave again. Seems to me the only real option would be to press the attack, using my body to try and pin your arm long enough for me to get in a disabling attack. If I could sever the femoral then I only have to survive longer than you for a very short time and even if you do get me, your dead. Sever the artery and it retracts and you'll never close it.

If you run, I MAY not kill you. If you continue the assualt, I will do it because you left me no choice.

True but a 2" folder can leathally spill guts on the non-obese but not penetrate to vital organs in the chest with a stab.

Fat people are harder to slice up and kidnap. I feel very safe!

Boards don't evade.

But it still has a high cool factor!;)

Serously though, if you can throw ANYTHING to break your opponents concentration or make them evade, you may frazzle them or buy yourself the time you need to employ a more effective tactic. Hell, I knocked a guy out cold once with a telephone reciever when I got in a little scuffle at a party when I was young. Like I said before, weapons are all around, you just need to realize thier potential. On an interesting note, the guy I plugged with the phone, was wielding a kitchen knife. I won't say what the other party goers did with him, but it was at a trailer park outside of a small Kansas town and they were pissed at him because of his shenanigans. Use your imagination.;)

I'm getting too old and settled to belong to the cult of the knife anymore. If I carry a blade at all anymore its my spiderco rescue with a serrated sheeps foot blade. Nearly worthless in combat since its designed to save lives not take them.

I forgot, my wife got me a couple of nice neck knifes. I wear them sometimes when I dress light. Very concealable! I like them! Don't give up your weapons dude...you'll need them the very time you don't have them.

[Officer of Engineers]

Hey, who could turn down a chance to ride the "Train to Marrakesh"? You know, like the song! Curiosity has taken me to parts of some towns where trouble was highly likely. At least that's what the police said. In retrospect they were probably right. I still say that thing outside the disco in Melillia wasn't really my fault, I was just walking those Irish girls home.:

Sgt-Maj,

You are really giving us engineers a bad name. You were acting like the infanteer. In fact, worst, you were acting the commando. Engrs like to out-think the enemy, not out-p!ssed off beyond the enemy.