Which is the best tank?

[Officer of Engineers]

Originally posted by Smoke286
As far as fighting an adaptive army, just who were you refering to, Iraq?

For Canada? The Wehrmacht and the People's Volunteer Army in Korea.

For Israel, I cannot think of one. Maybe someone else can.

[bigross86]

I don't wanna trump Israeli equipment or soldiers just cause I'm Israeli, but the IDF has fought some fairly tough wars. 1973 was especially tough beacuse of the Intel breakdown.

As for an adaptive enemy, I think the Egyptians played that role fairly well up to a point in the Yom-Kippur War.

The War of Attrition was tasking and demanding as well, due to the fact that no official war was declared and the situation was mainly like it is today with the Intifada.

From 1982-2000 in the Peace of Galilee war Israel was forced to fight in both an urban and non-urban battlezone. One example of the IDF apating was using AAA units sch as the Machbet (An M61A1 Vulcan and a pod of Stinger missiles an on M-113 chassis) again's terrorists and against buildings.

I'm no expert on the subject and I'm eager to learn, so I await your comments, Ray, OOE, and everyone else

[Officer of Engineers]

The measure of any good army is not when things go right but when things go wrong. By that measure, none of Israel's enemies can be counted as a good army.

[bigross86]

Than by the same extension the IDF can be called a good army, due to the clusterf**k that the Yom Kippur war was

[Officer of Engineers]

I never said that it wasn't. I only said that it is unfair to compare the IsDF to the rest of the world's armies that had faced tougher oppenants than the IsDF.

Just because the IsDF didn't face a Soviet Army Group does not mean that it couldn't have defeated one, though the odds are stacked against it.

Israeli Generals also decry the loss of training and doctrinal development as a result of the Intifada. As bad as some of the fighting was in the Palestinian camps, it ain't nothing compared to Operation Thunder Run.

There are no good peaceway ways of using "when things go wrong" measure because things only go bad during actual war. The only thing you can measure is what kind of resources you get to react with. In that case, Western C4ISR got the upper hand but that is purely a resource measure, not a solution devising measure.

[Officer of Engineers]

Just goes to show that it's the training and not just the equipment.

The Americans just won the last round of the CANAM Trophy, pitting a company of American M1A2 tanks against a company of Canadian Leo C2 tanks. The difference was the Americans score two hits more out of 36 (both night and day shoots).

In the six years of competition, it's now 3-3.

The CANAM Trophy is the decendent of the NATO Tank Gunnery Compeition, AKA The Canadian Trophy.

[Smoke286]

Originally posted by Officer of Engineers


The Americans just won the last round of the CANAM Trophy, pitting a company of American M1A2 tanks against a company of Canadian Leo C2 tanks. The difference was the Americans score two hits more out of 36 (both night and day shoots).

So as to not leave anyone with the wrong idea, that does not mean Canada has Leopard 2 tanks, they are 1960's style Leopard 1 tanks with a littel extra armour added on, they still have the old British 105 guns

[Smoke286]

Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
For Canada? The Wehrmacht and the People's Volunteer Army in Korea.

For Israel, I cannot think of one. Maybe someone else can.

Fair enough, i thought you were claiming that the Iraqi army was an adaptive one

[Officer of Engineers]

Originally posted by Smoke286
So as to not leave anyone with the wrong idea, that does not mean Canada has Leopard 2 tanks, they are 1960's style Leopard 1 tanks with a littel extra armour added on, they still have the old British 105 guns

Leo 1A5 Standard.

[smilingassassin]

Its nice to know that out tankers can compair quite closely to the americans in their Abrams! Just out of curiousity what are the upgrades canada made to its Leo's?

[Officer of Engineers]

Basically, they remove everything but the frame - upgraded armour, refurbished turret, and new Fire Control Systems.

[tomas]

Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
Basically, they remove everything but the frame - upgraded armour, refurbished turret, and new Fire Control Systems.

any down falls to it? like speed or manuverability?

[Officer of Engineers]

Still, an old tank. There's only about 10 years of life left in the old frame, especially the way Canadian tankers drive them. The old Leo C1s were so worned out that you could poke a pencil through some of the armour at parts.

[tomas]

that sounds bad and what do you mean by the way the tank drivers drive them?

[Officer of Engineers]

Our tankers treat tanks like they were dune buggies.