Funny chart

[Bill]

I think most people really underestimate the huge number of tankers needed to fight a LR naval air battle.

This is one of the things i've learnt in my many convos with the pilots over at Whiskey Tango.

The USN even with it's compliment of six S-3's per carrier still has to rely heavily on USAF KC-135 and KC-110 assets to maintain a deep strike capability.

To control the Indian ocean(or even a portion of it) you would need many carriers and dozens of tankers.

Besides the US...and maybe(doubtfully) Russia, there is no nation on earth that can maintain a 24/7 high intensity air battle out on the high seas for any duration.

Not even Britian could do it now that they've retired so many vessels and aircraft.

And france...they can't even get their carrier to work right, lol.

[Jay]

Snipe,
If its IN Vs USN, then its outta equation.
But I think the present 6 IL 76/78's would be enuff to counter China and Pakistan (not together).

IN is planning for 4 Carriers, one for each region (East, West, IOR, Andamans). I think by 2025 it might become a reality.

Heard that US actively encourages IN in this aspect :roll

[Bill]

I guess the USN wants a playmate on the high seas that can pose something of a credible threat in a maritime exercise... ;)

I don't think any war with Pakistan would require much naval manuevering other than a simple blockade...but the IN has to be very careful where it parks that flat top, because to be honest the IN totally lacks the kind of indepth AAW capability to defend it from a massed PAF air attack.

[Jay]

I dont think so Snipe.
I do agree that IN Carrier has a considerable threat, but not from PAF fighters, but from 3 of its Agostas. IN has one of the best towed array sonars in the region, dedicated ASW choppers, quiet Kilo subs, dedicated ASW platforms like P-17's frigates.

In an all out war, PAF will be squeezed to their balls, if they transfer some of their active squadrons for mari time role. Simply put, they dont have the numbers. Then comes the equipment, are they gonna attack a carrier with 16 Mig-29K's with their obselete 16 or so F-16 A/B's ?? or with Mirage III (ROSE) or with the spectacular FC-1 ??:evil: I would doubt it.

OTOH parking the carrier anywhere near Malacca starts would be tragic, given the fact that PLAN has a better Submarine force than India.

I think USN is warming up with the idea for joint patrolling and load sharing which is good for us. Why on earth would Italy and Belgium help IN to build its ADS :smoke

[Praxus]

OTOH parking the carrier anywhere near Malacca starts would be tragic, given the fact that PLAN has a better Submarine force than India.

More, yes. Better, I dought it.

[Jay]

I dont think they are really bad. They do have a potent submarine force viz a viz with IN.

[Praxus]

China only has 4 Kilo's, the rest of their ships are ancient peices of CRAP or loud as hell Nukes.

[Officer of Engineers]

Praxus,

Several things. Against navies with extensive ASW experience, the PLAN sub fleet are mere targets. Against navies without such experience, they are a threat.

2nd, they've just lost an entire Ming crew. Name me one other navy with extensive sub expertise that did not go through such trials. There is an old saying among sub crews. If you haven't lost one, you ain't worth crap. And that is a very sad truth.

[Bill]

The PAF has a squadron of P-3Cs that can rain Harpoons on an Indian fleet OTH, plus a squadron of dedicated Mirage F-1s equipped with Exocet.

And Orions are pretty darned good at maritime reece...that's one of their primary missions.

Fleet AAW is a glaring weakness of the IN.

I would not be so confident.

[Blademaster]

India has 15 land based maritime strike fighters in the form of IM Jaguars besides the usual assortment of harriers and frigates and destroyers. Also they have enough fighters stationed nearby Pakistan that they can find the P-3C Orions and strike them down. Don't make the mistake that IN will steam ahead without IAF coverage. Since Pakistan only has 3 orions, I doubt Pakistan's ability to make sustained recce. IN has more staying power than Pakistan does. India has 13 maritime recce planes. I think IN is bidding to increase that number to 24 but don't take my word for it.

[Jay]

Snipe,
India has 15 Maritime Jags, 19 Sea Harriers, 16+ Mig 29K's (For Gorschkov) and an assortment of reconns.

Dunno how many Orions PN initially purchased. one went down (accident) and another was shot down by InAF.

IN reportedly was considering the purchase of latest Orions from USA (last year).

InAF can loan another sqadron of fighters to IN incase of war, so considering all these I dont think PN is ever a threat. But PLAN is a different ball game.

[Bill]

Pakistan has i believe 18 Orions give or take, each of which can pack 4 harpoons.

If the Viraat was located(it is a big but legitimate if), that's 72 Harpoons in one massed attack all launched OTH where the Orion's flying on the deck would probably never even be detected.

IF such an attack(regardless of who launched it) were to bear in on an IN CVBG they simply don't have anything like the kind of AAW needed to survive.

Combined with the PAF Mirage F-1 maritime strike fighters flying with Exocet, the PAF poses a very real threat.

Need i remind you that just TWO Iraqi F-1's closed to Exocet range of a USN SAG on wartime footing with full AWACS and fighter cover and loosed a pair of missiles at the USS Missouri during ODS... and that an RN Type 42 DDG had to fire a very difficult over the shoulder point shot to intercept at the last moment?

If those missiles had missed, the Missouri's only remaining line of defense was it's 4 CIWS.

While i seriously doubt a pair of Exocets would do anything but annoy an Iowa class battleship, they would do serious damage to a lesser ship, including the Viraat.

The Harpoon has an even bigger warhead, and it is harder to hit and spoof. It also has double the range.

What PAF pilot wouldn't risk a glorious return to Allah to put a Harpoon into the skin of the Viraat?

The PAF is a real threat. They'd need a bit of luck, and maybe a little bad luck for the IN....but it can definitely happen.

[Blademaster]

Pakistan does *NOT* have 18 orions. They only have 3. I think the 18 refers to the number of harpoons they got from USA. Because of this low number, the Pakistan Navy is not really a threat except for its submarines.

[Jay]

Snipe,
They dont have 18. It should be either 3 or 6. Out of them they lost 1 and they crashed the other. So effectively we are talking about 1 or 3 Orions with 18 or so Harpoons.

I definetly dont doubt that PAF will try to get close to Viraat, but definetely the odds are in favour of IN. Remember India is getting AWACS, already posses mid-flight refuelling capacity.

[Bill]

Uh huh, and just two Iraqi F-1s flew right into F-14D, E-2C, AEGIS controlled airspace and loosed two missiles at the Missouri BEFORE they were ever detected.

I am quite sure you will agree that A, the USN has FAR superior early warning, and that B, the PAF is FAR better than the Iraqi Airforce.

I had thought the US just sold 12 Orions to Pakistan very recently. I guess i misread.

That leaves a full squadron of dedicated PAF F-1s with Exocets. Still a legitimate threat for a fleet that has an unlucky day.