Snowden - Europe complicit

[Minskaya]

Europe using ‘similar surveilance methods’ to US
Nov 3, 2013

Spy agencies across Western Europe are working together on mass surveillance of internet and phone traffic comparable to programmes run by their US counterpart denounced by European governments, the Guardian newspaper reported today. Citing documents leaked by fugitive former US National Security Agency (NSA) contractor Edward Snowden, the Guardian said methods included tapping into fibre optic cables and working covertly with private telecommunications companies.

The Guardian named Germany, France, Spain, Sweden and the Netherlands as countries where intelligence agencies had been developing such methods in cooperation with counterparts including the UK’s surveillance agency GCHQ. The report is potentially embarrassing for governments, especially in Germany and France which have been the most vocal in protesting about US mass surveillance of European communication networks revealed by Snowden since June. The Guardian reported that GCHQ files leaked by Snowden showed the British agency taking credit for advising European counterparts on how to get around domestic laws intended to restrict their surveillance powers.

Source

Memo to Angela Merkel. People who live in glass houses....

[Red Team]

Pot meet kettle much?

[Doktor]

Are those Europeans intercepting allied leaders communications?

[TopHatter]

Let's face it, the European leaderships protestations to the U.S. are largely pro forma and meant for foreign and domestic public -not government- consumption.

Everybody does it, everybody knows everybody does it and nobody talks about it out loud. Once in a while somebody gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar and there's a big brouhaha for awhile and then it's back to business as usual.

[kato]

SPON has drafted a list of ten "people of interest" who'd probably have to testify before a possible German parliamentary committee to examine the whole affair. Parliament will decide on whether to form such a committee in the next few weeks.

1. three guesses who
2. Angela Merkel, chancellor 2005 to current (obviously)
3. Gerhard Schröder, chancellor 1998 to 2005 (brokered NSA/BND information exchanges after 9/11)
4. Frank-Walter Steinmeier, federal intelligence minister 1999 to 2005 (same reason as Schröder)
5. Ronald Pofalla, federal intelligence service minister 2009 to current (for obvious reasons)
6. Hans-Peter Friedrich, federal interior minister 2011 to current (who's called for total surveillance of the internet)
7. John B. Emerson, US Ambassador to Germany, current (more for representation purposes)
8. Gerhard Schindler, chief of federal foreign intelligence service 2011 to current (for failures in counterespionage)
9. August Hanning, chief of federal foreign intelligence service 1998 to 2005 (see Schröder, also for cosigning espionage treaties with Hayden in 2002)
10. Hans-Christian Ströbele, provided Snowden can't testify (has visited Snowden in Moscow a couple times)

The problem isn't really that we're pulling surveillance on the internet. Come on, everyone knows that everyone does that. The problem is that we're sharing our information with the NSA. Which they don't reciprocate.

[Gun Grape]

Let's face it, the European leaderships protestations to the U.S. are largely pro forma and meant for foreign and domestic public -not government- consumption.

Everybody does it, everybody knows everybody does it and nobody talks about it out loud. Once in a while somebody gets caught with their hand in the cookie jar and there's a big brouhaha for awhile and then it's back to business as usual.

As noted here.

Law of the jungle not good enough – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs

At first glance, this is a story that is less about ethics and more about power – the great power gap between the United States and other countries, even rich European ones. The most illuminating response to the revelations came from Bernard Kouchner, formerly the foreign minister of France. He said in a radio interview: "Let's be honest, we eavesdrop too. Everyone is listening to everyone else." Kouchner went on to add "we don't have the same means as the United States, which makes us jealous."

[TopHatter]

As noted here.

Law of the jungle not good enough – Global Public Square - CNN.com Blogs

Envy. Nailed it.

[cyppok]

I do not care where or whom we spy on outside the US.

I DO CARE about US ignoring judicial review HERE~!!!

Simply going through a division of labour from the outside to get Americans' rights
skirted and tread on the Constitution both federal and state is very bad.
For today and future. When all is allowed for those in power, it becomes irrelevant for the rest of us
to follow laws.

So far none of the warrantless and rubberstamp courts (with secret reviews) are resolved... in the favor
of the common man ergo done away with.

[Mihais]

Funny thing is there are several big players in this game that don't even get mentioned.The Chinese ,Russians ,Israelis at the very least.Yet all we have is westerners throwing crap at each other.
It's not that the pro's don't know the rule already-that there are no friends in intel work.It's that the dumb masses vote depending on the latest hoopla.

[cyppok]

Funny thing is there are several big players in this game that don't even get mentioned.The Chinese ,Russians ,Israelis at the very least.Yet all we have is westerners throwing crap at each other.
It's not that the pro's don't know the rule already-that there are no friends in intel work.It's that the dumb masses vote depending on the latest hoopla.

not crap reality.

the US constitution allows spying on non-Americans....

it does not on Americans without Judicial review...

[Doktor]

Envy. Nailed it.

Kouchner is always plain honest that it hurts. One of the few EU politicians with weight.

Anyway, the bottom line is NSA ****** this up on so many levels, from spying foreign leaders (and get caught) to spying own citizens (and get with the pants down, again).

To add to what Mihais said, it must be damn busy in the Russian, Chinese or Israeli intel community looking all this from aside and waiting a blow.

[Dreadnought]

Many countries spy on each other in many forms, why they are all acting offended is obviously just a show so they dont have to disclose their own programs to their own people.

Notice the Israeli's said something about it days ago and its pretty much quieted down?

[Dreadnought]

Notice Brazil has come foreward as well.

Brazil admits spying but says it wasn't like NSA - CNN.com

NEWSFLASH....They all do.

[JAD_333]

I do not care where or whom we spy on outside the US.

I DO CARE about US ignoring judicial review HERE~!!!

Simply going through a division of labour from the outside to get Americans' rights
skirted and tread on the Constitution both federal and state is very bad.
For today and future. When all is allowed for those in power, it becomes irrelevant for the rest of us
to follow laws.

So far none of the warrantless and rubberstamp courts (with secret reviews) are resolved... in the favor
of the common man ergo done away with.

We should all be concerned with how far and deep NSA surveillance goes. They could, of course, inform us, but then their methods wouldn't be a secret anymore.

In the debate over NSA's prying, we lack the information we need to make a judgement, and a great many people, some very intelligent, are jumping to conclusions. For example, no one knows whether NSA surveillance goes farther than connecting the dots on phone calls and internet traffic or whether it is recording content. Sometimes it seems to me NSA is being berated for the modern version of a police stakeout, watching who comes and goes. And if that is bad, how bad is it that the police cruise the streets and walk beats watching us for unusual behavior without any inkling that we're going to commit a crime?

Well, anyway, if the NSA is recording my calls, it might come in handy if I ever need a record of a phone call I had with a client who now claims he didn't say what he said.:)

[gf0012-aust]

Notice Brazil has come foreward as well.

Brazil admits spying but says it wasn't like NSA - CNN.com

NEWSFLASH....They all do.

I've said prev and elsewhere that there would be a number of countries that do this - if not all countries with an INT service. They would all be saying "there but for the grace of god go I....."

This is more about the fact that some are revelling in the USG's discomfort more than sincere horror that a country is practicing the craft

In fact, I'd argue that there's more than a bit of envy involved in the fact that quite a few countries wish that they had the capacity to run INT at such a level - there's some black humour involved when you see countries that have no semblance of a separation of powers (independent judiciary, military and govt) and are wailing about things....

I can't believe that people are that naive that they don't think that others are not doing this albeit on a much smaller scale - and that's due to tech limitations rather than desire.

In fact we know that some of "old europe" (usually considered to be western europe) actively run against each other - most of it is about state intent on commercial issues - heck one of them was the leading edge on commercial espionage for decades.

the feigned indignation from some of those countries is nauseating. its a damn shame their own populations aren't more aware of how much surveillance happens locally before they hit the streets and protest against americans :)