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  • The Problem with Israel

    The Problem with Israel

    This topic is in response to discussion in the Worse than Carter thread which has branched into this.

    -------------------------------------

    Israel. There is a dark and muddled past that created this nation and the endless conflict that exists in that region today. There are a lot of misconceptions about Israel, its history, and what needs to be done to move forward. This has nothing to do with Jews or the Jewish people, this has just to do with the state of Israel and the Zionist worldview that has made such a mess of that part of the world. I want to do three things here: give some background history, explain the problem with Israel today in the peace process, and lay out the solution.

    The History (Long read, so I put in spoiler tags if you know it already)
    Spoiler!

    The Problem Today:

    Simply put, the Israeli government can't be trusted. Neither can the Palestinians and neighboring states be allowed to have all of their demands. The idea of a negotiated solution is impossible at this point because the idea of Zionist expansion is still too heavy in the heads of many Israeli politicians.

    This is one US general’s view of Israel’s problems and cites multiple reasons why Israel has continued to cause destabilization in the region and is not a US ally.


    Among the most telling:

    -Sending assassins into foreign countries to eliminate political opponents.
    -Occupying territory with military force in violation of UNSC resolutions
    -Assassinated a UN diplomat
    -Attempted to bomb American assets in Egypt to damage US-Egyptian relations
    -Refuses to extradite American-Jewish citizens who commit murder
    -Attacked a UN refugee camp
    -Had a PM who overtly told his staff that “We control America”
    -Has defied 69 UN resolutions, and is protected from more by America
    -Signed Oslo Accords to end settlements and since has created over 270 more (some have merged).
    -Regular violation of Geneva Convention
    -No respect for international law

    The increasing number of Jewish settlements, continued eviction of Palestinians, the worsening economic conditions of Palestinians, the blockades of Gaza. and the treatment of the occupied West Bank as a colony shows the government is not interested in peace. They want to take as much as they can get and hold onto it.

    What is the purpose?


    The solution: The international community, led by the United States, has to stand up for the values of supporting freedom that we have long professed and long ignored. Israel wants to "negotiate a solution between the two parties". The solution will never happen because its not in Israel's interests to upset the status quo. No solution has occurred in the last 70 years and its not going to change. Israel also refused to give up its ultimatum that they be recognized as a JEWISH state. Foreign intervention is mainly responsible for supporting the creation of Jewish state and beginning the conflict, only foreign intervention will fix it. Its time to hold Israel accountable to the UN resolutions and the laws of the international community. At the same time, we need to encourage (carrot and stick if needed) the Palestinian government to support democratic values. That means Palestine must give equal treatment to Jewish citizens as they do their own and not evict the Jews living there (legally).

    Sadly, we recently passed up a great opportunity to grant Palestinian statehood in the UN Security Council because of our idiotic insistance on bowing to Netanyahu's selfish interests yet again. Yes, there would have been residual problems and violence, but we were able to create Kosovo, so there is no reason Palestine should be any different. The Arab world will become more stable and extremism will decrease--and the US will gain new allies from people where it never had any support before. Israel will get in line eventually and start acting responsibly if they realize they've lost our support for their continuously stupid actions.
    Last edited by The Black Ghost; 22 Oct 11,, 20:19.
    The greatest weapon is the truth

  • #2
    Dubi 2.0

    This is going to be entertaining...

    Comment


    • #3
      Here we go again. Ben? :pop:
      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

      Comment


      • #4
        I support a Palestinian state but come on....
        To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

        Comment


        • #5
          I did ask this fella to read the Israel threads. Apparently he has, because he's starting from the same false premises and ignoring many of the same facts Dubi did. Let's give him a chance though...

          (Might take a few minutes for my next post to appear as I answer this guy)
          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

          Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Problem with Israel: Ben lives there!
            Ego Numquam

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by chunder View Post
              the problem with israel: Ben lives there!
              ^^^roflmao^^^
              No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

              To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by The Black Ghost View Post
                The Problem with Israel

                This topic is in response to discussion in the Worse than Carter thread which has branched into this.

                -------------------------------------

                Israel. There is a dark and muddled past that created this nation and the endless conflict that exists in that region today. There are a lot of misconceptions about Israel, its history, and what needs to be done to move forward. This has nothing to do with Jews or the Jewish people, this has just to do with the state of Israel and the Zionist worldview that has made such a mess of that part of the world. I want to do three things here: give some background history, explain the problem with Israel today in the peace process, and lay out the solution.

                The History (Long read, so I put in spoiler tags if you know it already)
                The creation of the state of Israel can be summed up as a long list of horribly careless mistakes. I’m going to go through the steps.
                Beautiful intro! I hope you don't mind if I use Wikipedia for most of my sources, I've been over this so many times I can't be bothered to look too hard. You can find better sources in the other Israel threads, if you must

                Pre-British Palestine under the Ottoman Empire:

                There have been Jews living in the area of Palestine forever, but their population was relatively small and concentrated around holy sites. They were a minority that was sometimes hated, but they enjoyed more equality under Ottoman rule than many other countries in Europe. Over the years, more Jews would immigrate to Ottoman lands, mostly in Palestine. Though there was sometimes unrest between the Jewish and Arab populations, the situation was pretty stable. There was little aspiration or need for Jews to create their own state at this time, although some probably shared the sentiment of local Palestinian peoples of breaking free of Ottoman rule.
                (Further reading: Palestine under the Ottoman Empire)
                Wonderful summary, except you're forgetting some things: Hovevei Zion had already been founding settlements in Israel under the flag of Zionism since 1870, well before the British Occupation of Palestine, but we'll get to that momentarily

                The Second Aliyah beginning in 1904 took that aspiration one step further by actually bringing Hebrew back to life and more settlements with land legally bought from the local Arabs under the flag of Zionism

                British Mandate of Palestine:

                FIRST MISTAKE: After World War I, the Ottoman Empire was divided up by the British, much to the dissatisfaction of the people living there. The people of Palestine wanted autonomy, but instead they ended up being ruled like a quasi-colony. It was around this time that the idea of Zionism and a Jewish state in Palestine came about. The British favored the Jewish state so they tried to push it forward with multiple treaties and agreements. However because of British treatment of Palestine, it quickly was seen as nothing more than an imperialist power dividing up their land.
                Once again, Zionism had been around since 1870, and definitely since Herzl's Dar Judenstaat in 1896 and the first Zionist Congress in 1897

                SECOND MISTAKE: A wave of Zionist Jews soon followed in the post-war years and increased exponentially between the 1930s and 1945. It began harmless enough—Jewish immigrants came into Palestine seeking a return to their ancient roots and homeland. There were many factions on either side that committed violence, but the idea of creating a Jewish nation composed entirely of Jews sparked increased conflict in the region. This idea was a mistake from the beginning—and it couldn’t have come at a worse time. There was a movement of Arabs trying to break free of British rule, and the creation of Jewish nation undermined the ability of the Arabs to have the independence they wanted. Violence increased between people of both sides.
                Actually, looking at the Jewish underground, many of them only committed reprisal acts against the Arabs, and many worked in common with the British against the Arabs. Yes, there were the Stern Gang which were anti-British, but the Palmach and Haganah worked extremely closely at times with the British.

                THIRD MISTAKE: Right-wing militants increasingly took control of Israeli society and the Israeli government. This was mostly in response to growing fear of Arabs and attempts to get rid of the British, who ironically had allowed so many Jews into Palestine in the first place. Terrorism ended up setting the precedent for Israeli resistance and this created a very poor image of all Jews among the Arab communities. They feared what would happen to them if a Jewish state was set up on their land. When the UN announced a partition plan, the Arabs were even more scared and declared they would not support the plan and would attack if it was enacted. As the conflict grew, the Jewish paramilitary forces started systematically razing Arab villages and an ethnic cleansing operation of all Arabs in their path. This led to massive waves of Palestinians to flee in a mass-exodus, while others were forcibly evicted. In total, about 700,000 fled or were forced out of the country, largely in part due to Israeli actions. This is conjunction with increasing massacres and killings of Arabs especially at Deir Yassin left the Arabs unwilling to allow right-wing militants to control a Jewish state. Today, this would be like giving Al-Qaeda a country. This unfortunately led many Arabs to retaliate in similar ways, so it began to breed the vicious cycle of violence.
                A) There were isolated incidents of villages being razed, not a systematic campaign as you claim.

                B) It's interesting that you claim the right-wingers took control of Israel, being that David Ben-Gurion and most of the Yishuv were extremely socialist and left wing. One of the main reasons the USSR supported the founding of Israel in the 1947 Partition Vote was because they thought they would be helping found another Soviet satellite state in the Middle East. Kibbutzim (communal settlements) had been around since the Second Aliyah.

                C) Reading just about any history of the region will point to the Palestinians under Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini starting the violence in the 1920's already

                FOURTH MISTAKE: This was the worst possible moment to declare a Jewish state, but that was what Ben-Gurion (current leader of Jewish forces) did. Israel decisively won the war and created the modern day state. They also seized more lands from the surrounding countries, isolating the last bastions of Palestinian Arabs living in the region. This set the stage for further conflict which would erupt into war multiple times with both sides retaliating back and forth. Israel’s continued programs against the Palestinians. Though Israel promotes equality, the connection of Israel to Judaism and its policies towards Palestinians has ensured the conflict does not end.
                You mean that equality that gives Israeli Arabs all civil rights afforded to all Israelis including the right to vote and political representation? Israeli Arabs currently hold ~19% of the seats in the Knesset, which tallies with their representation in the population

                The Problem Today:

                Simply put, the Israeli government can't be trusted. Neither can the Palestinians and neighboring states be allowed to have all of their demands. The idea of a negotiated solution is impossible at this point because the idea of Zionist expansion is still too heavy in the heads of many Israeli politicians.
                Despite an unprecedented settlement freeze enacted by Netanyahu in order to bring the Palestinians to the negotiating table and throughout which they did absolutely nothing, and repeated proposals giving the Palestinians over 90% of their demands? You're right, the Israeli government can't be trusted

                This is one US general’s view of Israel’s problems and cites multiple reasons why Israel has continued to cause destabilization in the region and is not a US ally.


                Among the most telling:
                I hope you don't mind if I only respond to a few of these

                Yup, no one else in the world does that...

                -Occupying territory with military force in violation of UNSC resolutions
                We'll get into UN 242 later...

                -Assassinated a UN diplomat
                And has had Israeli diplomats and even a governmental Minister assassinated overseas and in Israel itself

                -Attempted to bomb American assets in Egypt to damage US-Egyptian relations
                -Refuses to extradite American-Jewish citizens who commit murder
                -Attacked a UN refugee camp
                I assume you're referring to Sabra and Shatila, the massacre committed by Southern Lebanese troops?

                -Had a PM who overtly told his staff that “We control America”
                And has had numerous Prime Ministers that have said that we desire peace with the Palestinians? Oh, the horror!!!

                -Has defied 69 UN resolutions, and is protected from more by America
                Also has more UN resolutions enacted against them than most of the rest of the world combined

                -Signed Oslo Accords to end settlements and since has created over 270 more (some have merged).
                Trust me, whatever the Israeli did bad wrt to Oslo, the Palestinians did worse, which will tie in to my conclusion at the end of this post

                -Regular violation of Geneva Convention
                I'm gonna assume you're referring to Operation Cast Lead and the use of White Phosphorous? All uses of WP were legal aside from 2 which were questionable, and the officers that ordered the questionable uses were both tried in military tribunal

                -No respect for international law
                Specifics, man! Specifics!


                Right, that same Gaza that even the Red Cross admits doesn't have a humanitarian crisis and has recently opened new malls, water parks and an Olympic size pool.

                The solution: The international community, led by the United States, has to stand up for the values of supporting freedom that we have long professed and long ignored. Israel wants to "negotiate a solution between the two parties". The solution will never happen because its not in Israel's interests to upset the status quo. No solution has occurred in the last 70 years and its not going to change. Israel also refused to give up its ultimatum that they be recognized as a JEWISH state. Foreign intervention is mainly responsible for supporting the creation of Jewish state and beginning the conflict, only foreign intervention will fix it. Its time to hold Israel accountable to the UN resolutions and the laws of the international community. At the same time, we need to encourage (carrot and stick if needed) the Palestinian government to support democratic values. That means Palestine must give equal treatment to Jewish citizens as they do their own and not evict the Jews living there (legally).

                Sadly, we recently passed up a great opportunity to grant Palestinian statehood in the UN Security Council because of our idiotic insistance on bowing to Netanyahu's selfish interests yet again. Yes, there would have been residual problems and violence, but we were able to create Kosovo, so there is no reason Palestine should be any different. The Arab world will become more stable and extremism will decrease--and the US will gain new allies from people where it never had any support before. Israel will get in line eventually and start acting responsibly if they realize they've lost our support for their continuously stupid actions.
                Read the UN Palestinian Statehood threads which will explain why even if the US supported their bid and a Palestinian state was declared AND founded, nothing would have changed, not in the least

                ================================================== ==========

                In summary: My claim has been and always will be that both sides are wrong. However, in the grand scheme of things, Israel is continuously and repeatedly less wrong and therefore more right.
                Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                Comment


                • #9
                  This isnt about Jewish people, it is about the country and its actions. The actions of surrounding countries also are despicable many times and we should similarily reward just actions and democratic processes and punish/discourage anything else.

                  However the fact remains that neither side can come to an agreement without outside help. Israel has too many demands and its appetite is too great while Palestinians are powerless and still have racial prejudices because of the history I described.
                  The greatest weapon is the truth

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chunder View Post
                    The Problem with Israel: Ben lives there!
                    Originally posted by Doktor View Post
                    ^^^roflmao^^^
                    Gee, thankx fellas...
                    Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                    Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      TBG, I am sorry, but I don't get you, first you say State of Israel should be demolished (or whatever words you used), go to 4 wrongs about the process of forming it, to just relativize everything by saying their government is bad.

                      OTOH, you claim everywhere that you love ALL the people and that you respect ALL their rights.
                      What about the right to exist?

                      What Israeli appetite you are talking about? They want more then they have now? All I read is they will give most that Pals ask for except several km2 for defense purposes which they will compensate with a land elsewhere.
                      No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                      To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by bigross86 View Post
                        I did ask this fella to read the Israel threads. Apparently he has, because he's starting from the same false premises and ignoring many of the same facts Dubi did. Let's give him a chance though...

                        (Might take a few minutes for my next post to appear as I answer this guy)
                        You are aware Hamas employs PR companies?
                        In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

                        Leibniz

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Black Ghost View Post
                          We'll, lets start with :
                          Lavon Affair

                          Aman decided to activate the network in the Spring of 1954. On July 2, the cell firebombed a post office in Alexandria,[5] and on July 14, it bombed the libraries of the U.S. Information Agency in Alexandria and Cairo and a British-owned theater. The homemade bombs, consisting of bags containing acid placed over nitroglycerine, were inserted into books, and placed on the shelves of the libraries just before closing time. Several hours later, as the acid ate through the bags, the bombs would explode. They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths.

                          Just sounds like they blew up a few shelves.
                          Last edited by Dago; 22 Oct 11,, 21:21.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Parihaka View Post
                            You are aware Hamas employs PR companies?
                            NO WAY!!! Jews control ALL the mass media, even AJE
                            No such thing as a good tax - Churchill

                            To make mistakes is human. To blame someone else for your mistake, is strategic.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I respect your viewpoints and certainly you have a different perspective and more at stake since you live in the country. However, there are things you clearly arent aware of or aren't getting the full story on. I'm going to make my main statement right in the beginning because I'll be using it further down.
                              Unjust actions are never justified, committing terror is never justified, and being "better than the enemy" is subjective and a logical fallacy.

                              Israel must stop all of its unethical and illegal policies immediately, they must cease their occupation of the West Bank and leave Gaza alone. They must accept fully that a Palestinian state should exist autonomously and have access to water and resources. They must give up their demands for recognition of a Jewish state which implies religious preference and influence in the government.


                              Originally posted by bigross86 View Post

                              Hovevei Zion had already been founding settlements in Israel under the flag of Zionism since 1870, well before the British Occupation of Palestine.

                              The Second Aliyah beginning in 1904 took that aspiration one step further by actually bringing Hebrew back to life and more settlements with land legally bought from the local Arabs under the flag of Zionism. Zionism had been around since 1870, and definitely since Herzl's Dar Judenstaat in 1896 and the first Zionist Congress in 1897
                              See how things changed somewhere along the line? The Jews living in Palestine went from legally buying land and building homesteads to illegally occupying territory and driving out the locals with force and/or discriminatory laws.
                              That is not to say that Arabs were not responsible for many of the same things but Jewish authorities set the precedent.

                              A) There were isolated incidents of villages being razed, not a systematic campaign as you claim.
                              Dont fool yourself. They had this planned even before the war in something called Plan D. It was systematic ethnic cleansing. Over 500 towns and villages were depopulated of Arabs, most of which were forced and many towns razed to the ground.. If you dont beleive me, look at the page and follow the individual links. In contrast, very few villages were depopulated of Jews during the war--though it did occur in response to Israeli actions.

                              B) It's interesting that you claim the right-wingers took control of Israel, being that David Ben-Gurion and most of the Yishuv were extremely socialist and left wing. One of the main reasons the USSR supported the founding of Israel in the 1947 Partition Vote was because they thought they would be helping found another Soviet satellite state in the Middle East. Kibbutzim (communal settlements) had been around since the Second Aliyah.
                              Lets not confuse their economic policy with their political policy. They were right-wing nationalists and many of them were very racist (not that Arab leaders weren't either). There were moderates who tried to abstain from violence and retaliation, but increasingly those moderates were overtaken by more radical party members. It was the terrorist groups like the Irgun who would lead Israel into war. The Haganah, contrary to what you claim, were just as involved, although more secretly. They also were responsible for numerous atrocities during the war. So where the Palmah.

                              Regardless of what some moderates tried to do, ultimately looking at the events that happened we can conclude without a doubt who was really in charge at the time...the military commanders.

                              C) Reading just about any history of the region will point to the Palestinians under Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini starting the violence in the 1920's
                              They may have started the large-scale violence, but there was certainly violence beforehand. Besides that, the British are largely responsible for not granting any kind of democracy and self-governance in the region because they didnt want an Arab majority. At the same time they supported the Jewish population...so it seemed like colonial favoritism. This led to the rise of radical leaders like al-Huseeini. The actions during the riots and the massacres are unjustifiable, but so are the actions taken in retaliation. There was no conspiracy against Jews, only politics and an enraged society.

                              You mean that equality that gives Israeli Arabs all civil rights afforded to all Israelis including the right to vote and political representation? Israeli Arabs currently hold ~19% of the seats in the Knesset, which tallies with their representation in the population
                              Imagine what that representation would be if all those Arabs were still in Isael--the ones who were forced out or scared away? Then who would have a majority? Israel touts the claim that they have equal rights, but in reality there is constant discrimination, especially in the West Bank area.

                              Here is an article discussing the truth of the matter and an attached 166-page report by the Human Rights Watch.

                              Also Israel passed strict immigration laws banning Gazan and West bank arabs Israeli citizenship through marriage to Israeli citizens. There is also unequal education in the Arab schools, a declaration of oath to a Jewish state required for citizenship, and religious racism strengthened by the strong church-state connections.


                              Despite an unprecedented settlement freeze enacted by Netanyahu in order to bring the Palestinians to the negotiating table and throughout which they did absolutely nothing, and repeated proposals giving the Palestinians over 90% of their demands? You're right, the Israeli government can't be trusted
                              Yet they continued the settlements anyways just as the Palestinians predicted. They sure are interested in peace.

                              Yup, no one else in the world does that...
                              The United States and other Western nations set a very bad example and they should also be held accountable. I do not defend them in the slightest. I could make an entire other thread addressing the atrocities of America.

                              And has had Israeli diplomats and even a governmental Minister assassinated overseas and in Israel itself
                              This goes back to the statement I made at the beginning. Just because it goes on elsewhere doesnt make it right. If you continue to justify the actions of a state based on the actions of other states then conflict never ends.


                              [quote] I assume you're referring to Sabra and Shatila, the massacre committed by Southern Lebanese troops?[/qupte]

                              In my country, accomplice to murder is the same as murder. Israel was responsible for supplying and supporting the Lebanese terrorists in the operation and massacre.

                              And has had numerous Prime Ministers that have said that we desire peace with the Palestinians? Oh, the horror!!!
                              Actions speak louder than words. For all the empty rhetoric, there has been little to no progress over the years to try to fix the problem.

                              Trust me, whatever the Israeli did bad wrt to Oslo, the Palestinians did worse, which will tie in to my conclusion at the end of this post
                              Again, thats a faulty arguement and totally subjective. They are responsible for continuing the conflict.

                              I'm gonna assume you're referring to Operation Cast Lead and the use of White Phosphorous? All uses of WP were legal aside from 2 which were questionable, and the officers that ordered the questionable uses were both tried in military tribunal
                              Israel Developed over 100 torture techniques for Palestinian Prisoners

                              Israel uses Banned torture methods

                              Torture of Political Prisoners in Israel

                              And saying that the US did it too isnt an arguement. We have our own things to answer for. The focus is Israel here.

                              Specifics, man! Specifics!

                              Heard of any of these? There are six pages and hundreds of violations of international law.

                              Right, that same Gaza that even the Red Cross admits doesn't have a humanitarian crisis and has recently opened new malls, water parks and an Olympic size pool.
                              Humanitarian Crisis in the West Bank and Settler attacks

                              Water Crisis in West bank because of Israeli control of water sources

                              Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza

                              Aid Agencies and Human Rights report from after Cast Lead



                              Also, I find this amusing but you should check your sources on the red cross article which stated "there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza!" Well, apparently the person who said this doesnt exist. Hmm, that's curious, but there is someone called Mathilde De Riedmatten whose name was conveniently mistranslated from Hebrew to English. This is what she really said recently, in May, 2011.

                              "Health care facilities are suffering from restrictions posed by Israel..."
                              "Violence claims civilian lives on a regular basis"
                              "Gaza is more dependent than ever on foreign aid"
                              "50% of the population is under 18"
                              "access to land suitable for agricultural has been restricted by Israel and the IDF"
                              "Unemployment stands at over 40%"
                              "Actual number of exports from Gaza remains close to 0"

                              So I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on that one article.

                              Read the UN Palestinian Statehood threads which will explain why even if the US supported their bid and a Palestinian state was declared AND founded, nothing would have changed, not in the least

                              In summary: My claim has been and always will be that both sides are wrong. However, in the grand scheme of things, Israel is continuously and repeatedly less wrong and therefore more right.
                              A horrible basis of arguementation. Being "less wrong"--whatever that means--is still wrong. The simple fact is that the Israeli government does not want peace, they want power. The international community has to create a solution for the minority part here (Palestine) and make Israel comply. I suspect that this will lead to further invasion of the West Bank, but if the US and its allies cut all funds to Israel and impose sanctions, they will comply. I'm really sorry you have to be stuck in the middle of a mess like this. There are many citizen groups in Israel who want to change the direction of current politics I think you should look into those.
                              Last edited by The Black Ghost; 23 Oct 11,, 00:11.
                              The greatest weapon is the truth

                              Comment

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