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  • House Approves Health Law Repeal

    Out goes the baby with the bathwater. If this achieves nothing in the long run but repeal of the insurance mandate, I can live with that.


    House Approves Health Law Repeal

    By JANET ADAMY And NAFTALI BENDAVID

    WASHINGTON—The Republican-led House voted Wednesday to repeal the health-care overhaul that is a signature achievement of President Barack Obama, in a largely symbolic move that made good on a GOP election promise but left uncertain what the party would offer as an alternative.

    The vote was 245-189 in favor of repeal, with three Democrats joining the entire Republican caucus in the majority. That compared with 34 House Democrats who voted in March 2010 against enacting the law.

    Despite Wednesday's vote, the law is all but certain to remain in place for now. The Democratic-controlled Senate doesn't plan to take up the repeal measure, and even if it were to clear that chamber, Mr. Obama would veto it.

    The three Democrats who voted for repeal were Reps. Dan Boren of Oklahoma, Mike McIntyre of North Carolina and Mike Ross of Arkansas. The other 10 House Democrats who originally opposed the health-care bill and were re-elected last November voted against repealing it.

    With the repeal vote behind them, House Republicans now must deliver on a second promise of last fall's campaign: proposing legislative alternatives to the Democrats' law. They will vote Thursday to pass a resolution instructing House committees to draft proposals they say will be more incremental than the Democrats' health overhaul.

    Republicans' replacement plans remain vague and could easily fade as the party shifts toward proposals to create jobs. Any fresh health legislation is expected to stall in the Senate.

    Pressed Wednesday for details of his party's health-care plans, House Speaker John Boehner described them as "common-sense reforms that bring down the cost of health insurance for the American people and expand access" to insurance.

    Speaking on the House floor, Republicans called for enacting stronger curbs on medical-malpractice lawsuits and letting insurers sell policies across state lines. Yet they also suggested they favored keeping elements of the Democrats' law, including a provision allowing children to stay on their parents' health-insurance policies until age 26 and a ban on insurers denying coverage due to pre-existing conditions.

    Democrats said the Republicans' ideas were marginal and would do little to solve the health system's problems. "It's easy to say you're against something. It is much harder to come up with solutions," said Rep. Susan Davis (D., Calif.). "It's irresponsible to repeal without a plan to fix the issues in our health-care system."

    Republicans are moving decisively against the law because they sense strong public support among their backers and activists to do so. They believe they succeeded in the 2010 midterm election in portraying the overhaul as a metaphor for an overreliance on big-government solutions, and now have a mandate to act.

    Among Republicans, 77% favor repealing and eliminating the law, according to a Wall Street Journal-NBC News Poll released Wednesday.

    Among the public overall, the new poll found 46% of respondents opposed repealing and eliminating the law, while 45% favored that outcome. At the same time, health care ranked third on a list of most important economic issues, well behind unemployment and just behind the federal budget deficit.

    Some Democrats questioned why Republicans were trying to undo the bill if they support its goals.

    "They want to repeal the bill but they still want to give it a big hug and embrace," said Rep. Anthony Weiner (D., N.Y.).

    "There are some things in the new law that are worth keeping, but until you sweep away the bad things, you cannot begin to work on the good things," said Rep. Joe Barton (R., Texas).

    The resolution to be passed by Republicans Thursday calls for House committees to draft legislation that would, among other things, give states greater flexibility to administer Medicaid programs and prohibit taxpayer funding of abortions, which Democrats contend their law already does.

    The Energy and Commerce Committee, in a memo outlining its priorities, said this week it would work to recapture the law's cuts to Medicare spending and funnel them back into the insurance program for the elderly. The law, designed to expand insurance to 32 million Americans, shaves more than $400 billion in Medicare payments over a decade.

    Changes to the health law are likely to come through stand-alone bills aimed at removing or reworking the least popular parts of the law.

    Both Democrats and Republicans have proposed legislation to remove the law's requirement that businesses file a 1099 tax form when they pay a vendor more than $600 in a year, and the White House backs the change.

    Some Senate Democrats who voted for the law said they were looking into an alternative to its requirement that most Americans carry insurance or pay a fee—a plank of the overhaul that one federal judge has ruled violates the U.S. Constitution.

    Republicans also plan to choke off funding to implement the law, since their control of the House gives them new leverage to control annual appropriations spending. They could block the Obama administration from hiring extra workers at the agencies that are implementing the law.

    But most of the law's funding—such as money to expand Medicaid and give tax credits to help lower earners buy insurance—is largely untouchable and would require Congress and the president to enact a new law to withhold it.

    "This is the law," Kathleen Sebelius, secretary of Health and Human Services, said Wednesday. "We intend to implement it and make it work for people across America."

    In two days of floor debate that culminated in Wednesday's vote, Republicans framed the health-care overhaul as a law that will destroy jobs by raising taxes and requiring firms to offer more comprehensive coverage.

    Democrats said there was no evidence the law has cost jobs and contended it would raise employment in the health-care industry. They pointed to a Congressional Budget Office estimate, disputed by Republicans, that repealing the law would add $230 billion to the federal budget deficit over a decade.

    Some lawmakers appeared to be trying to maintain a courteous tone, given the calls for civility that followed the recent shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D., Ariz.).

    Rep. Richard Hanna (R., N.Y.) and other Republicans called Mr. Obama's health-care law "well-intentioned." Rep. Charles Gonzalez (D., Texas) told Republicans, "I'm not questioning your intent or sincerity."

    House Votes to Repeal Health-Care Law - WSJ.com

    I never thought I would see the day when so many Americans seem unconcerned that the Constitution may have been violated by the mandate.
    The mandate's constitutionality is clearly questionable, and letting it stand as law could spell danger for the future strength of the Constitution in danger.

    Supporters of the mandate seem to have tacitly agreed that in this instance the Constitution is less important than meeting a social need. What they fail to see is that disregard for the Constitution even once jeopardizes the strength of its protections. Who knows what the next "exception" will be? But we know that one exception makes the next easier.

    If we want to protect the social contract on which the nation is founded, we must find a constitutional way to deal with health care reform.
    To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

  • #2
    Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
    Out goes the baby with the bathwater. If this achieves nothing in the long run but repeal of the insurance mandate, I can live with that.





    I never thought I would see the day when so many Americans seem unconcerned that the Constitution may have been violated by the mandate.
    The mandate's constitutionality is clearly questionable, and letting it stand as law could spell danger for the future strength of the Constitution in danger.

    Supporters of the mandate seem to have tacitly agreed that in this instance the Constitution is less important than meeting a social need. What they fail to see is that disregard for the Constitution even once jeopardizes the strength of its protections. Who knows what the next "exception" will be? But we know that one exception makes the next easier.

    If we want to protect the social contract on which the nation is founded, we must find a constitutional way to deal with health care reform.
    How is it unconstitutional?
    sigpic

    Comment


    • #3
      The mandate, as you know, requires all Americans to purchase health care insurance. In other words, the Federal government is requiring people to buy a commercial product. Supporters claim that the government has the power under the so-called Commerce Clause. The clause gives the United States Congress the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes". The second part is the basis for the mandate.

      The founders put that clause in the Constitution because, as a practical matter, only a central government could regulate commerce between and among states. But they did not give the Fed government the power to regulate commerce within a state. So, does the US have the power to require the citizens of each state to buy insurance? Is doing so interstate commerce or intrastate commerce? See the problem?

      It's important to understand that the Constitution sets strict limits on the power of the Federal government. These are often called, enumerated powers. And to stress that limitation it tacked on the 10th amendment to the Bill of Rights: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

      So, the Constitutional argument against the mandate is 1) Congress (the US) has no power to require citizens of the states to buy insurance, and 2) that all powers not given to the Fed government (the US), automatically belong to the states.

      To confuse matters, a federal judge ruled it unconstitutional in a case brought by Virginia, which means the issue will eventually end up in the Supreme Court, yet other judges have rules it constitutional. I believe they did so under the "necessary and proper" clause of the Constitution: The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

      Well, the Commerce Clause is one of those "foregoing" powers. If the SC rules that it doesn't give the US (Congress) the power to require you to buy insurance, the "necessary and proper" clause is out the window.

      Basically what we have here is a case of square peg being put into a round hole.
      Last edited by JAD_333; 20 Jan 11,, 06:41.
      To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education - Plato

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JAD_333 View Post
        The mandate, as you know, requires all Americans to purchase health care insurance. In other words, the Federal government is requiring people to buy a commercial product. Supporters claim that the government has the power under the so-called Commerce Clause. The clause gives the United States Congress the power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes". The second part is the basis for the mandate.

        The founders put that clause in the Constitution because, as a practical matter, only a central government could regulate commerce between and among states. But they did not give the Fed government the power to regulate commerce within a state. So, does the US have the power to require the citizens of each state to buy insurance? Is doing so interstate commerce or intrastate commerce? See the problem?

        It's important to understand that the Constitution sets strict limits on the power of the Federal government. These are often called, enumerated powers. And to stress that limitation it tacked on the 10th amendment to the Bill of Rights: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

        So, the Constitutional argument against the mandate is 1) Congress (the US) has no power to require citizens of the states to buy insurance, and 2) that all powers not given to the Fed government (the US), automatically belong to the states.

        To confuse matters, a federal judge ruled it unconstitutional in a case brought by Virginia, which means the issue will eventually end up in the Supreme Court, yet other judges have rules it constitutional. I believe they did so under the "necessary and proper" clause of the Constitution: The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

        Well, the Commerce Clause is one of those "foregoing" powers. If the SC rules that it doesn't give the US (Congress) the power to require you to buy insurance, the "necessary and proper" clause is out the window.

        Basically what we have here is a case of square peg being put into a round hole.
        So your arguing against the commerce Claus? It never disqualified in that passage the regulation within States. Regulating within a States can have consequence of "among the states..." hence the need to regulate within a state as it relates to - other states.

        Further more, the Supreme court upheld, and the one who elaborated on the commerce claus. This has been precedent for how long? So we have to undue everything within the ladder half of the century unconstitutional?

        All government business, within regulation, is done with the Commerce claus. Even the GOP. :)
        Last edited by Dago; 20 Jan 11,, 06:59.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          Dago you clearly do not understand the OP's point, which is completely correct.

          The federal government has no right to regulate intrastate commerce.

          Comment


          • #6
            The Republicans just blew their wad. This won't go anywhere in Reid's senate and Obama certainly won't approve.
            Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bonehead View Post
              The Republicans just blew their wad. This won't go anywhere in Reid's senate and Obama certainly won't approve.
              That's the whole point. The republican house passed this on to the democrat senate and presidency. They push back and the American people will see, once more, that the democrats don't listen to the people they claim to represent. It's a set up for 2012.
              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Dago View Post
                So your arguing against the commerce Claus? It never disqualified in that passage the regulation within States. Regulating within a States can have consequence of "among the states..." hence the need to regulate within a state as it relates to - other states.

                Further more, the Supreme court upheld, and the one who elaborated on the commerce claus. This has been precedent for how long? So we have to undue everything within the ladder half of the century unconstitutional?

                All government business, within regulation, is done with the Commerce claus. Even the GOP. :)
                Federal government can regulate interstate commerce once it happens. Federal government cannot force commerce onto people who do not wish to engage in commerce.

                Obamacare forces people to engage in commerce by the virtue of being alive. This has never been done before and is clearly unconstitutional. We own our lives. Not the feds.

                We buy car insurance. But we don't have to if we don't drive.

                We have to pay income taxes. But we don't have to if we don't have income.

                We buy health insurance. But we don't have to if we...don't live?
                "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Federal government can regulate interstate commerce once it happens. Federal government cannot force commerce onto people who do not wish to engage in commerce.

                  Obamacare forces people to engage in commerce by the virtue of being alive. This has never been done before and is clearly unconstitutional. We own our lives. Not the feds.
                  That is actually not complete true, there was at least one instance were a federal law required all male adults to poses a rifle, ammo and several other goods. The law was passed sometime between the revolution and the war of 1812. I can't remember the name right now, but it was something close to "minutemen act" or "soldier act" (but did refer to people NOT in the army.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    the legal argument, too, is that -not- buying insurance is also a commercial act. ie you are taking your risk and literally socializing it upon the greater populace in terms of higher medical costs. the cases that come out of this back and forth should be interesting.
                    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
                      That is actually not complete true, there was at least one instance were a federal law required all male adults to poses a rifle, ammo and several other goods. The law was passed sometime between the revolution and the war of 1812. I can't remember the name right now, but it was something close to "minutemen act" or "soldier act" (but did refer to people NOT in the army.
                      I can't find anything like that under "minuteman act" or "soldier act" either using google or msn.

                      Obviously that act is no longer in force.

                      We once had conscription also.

                      However, neither was justified using the commerce clause.
                      "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by astralis View Post
                        the legal argument, too, is that -not- buying insurance is also a commercial act. ie you are taking your risk and literally socializing it upon the greater populace in terms of higher medical costs. the cases that come out of this back and forth should be interesting.
                        So why not force people to buy auto insurance even if they don't drive? Pedestrians are less protected in a collision with a car than a person inside a car. The act of not driving puts the person in greater risk, therefore socializing it upon the greater populace in terms of higher medical costs.

                        I find the argument of "not engaging in an act is the act itself" very troubling.
                        "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I did some digging and the name was Militia Act of 1792.

                          And that it is no longer in force would not really matter, only the question if it was constitutional back then (to the best of my knowledge it was not overturned by the Supreme Court) AND if anything in the constitution has changed since then, making something that was constitutional back then is no longer today (slavery for example due the 14th amendment ).

                          If the act back then, as well as today was constitutional, it would, in my view, a rather big blow to the argument that the mandate of the reform is a violation of the constitution. (It still might be, for whatever reason. I just believe that this example would make it harder to overthrow the reform from this angle).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            gunnut,

                            Pedestrians are less protected in a collision with a car than a person inside a car. The act of not driving puts the person in greater risk, therefore socializing it upon the greater populace in terms of higher medical costs.
                            actually, the risks of an accident increases significantly when you're driving. but i understand what you're getting at.

                            in this case i think all the choices, frankly, have a lot of downsides.

                            the libertarian method would be to deny medical care to any whom can't afford it. this would take care of most of the cost issues but then you'd have the spectacle of people being thrown out of the ER because they have no money, or old people dying because they can't afford the medicine anymore. talk about death panels!

                            i'd imagine a republican plan wouldn't make insurance voluntary but give everyone whom -does- have insurance a tax break as an incentive. shift insurance from employer-based to personal-based. i suspect this would be a wash in terms of people getting insurance and cost; that tax break would certainly cost, and people are lazy so the decoupling would lead to currently-insured people dropping out. there's a reason why decoupling is -very- unpopular, and why republicans tend to not talk about this.

                            a centrist plan would probably be similar to the above but make insurance mandatory. a tax break might be involved but it would be smaller than the one a republican would push for.

                            a liberal plan would just be the public option; a very liberal plan would be single-payer.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tarek Morgen View Post
                              I did some digging and the name was Militia Act of 1792.

                              And that it is no longer in force would not really matter, only the question if it was constitutional back then (to the best of my knowledge it was not overturned by the Supreme Court) AND if anything in the constitution has changed since then, making something that was constitutional back then is no longer today (slavery for example due the 14th amendment ).

                              If the act back then, as well as today was constitutional, it would, in my view, a rather big blow to the argument that the mandate of the reform is a violation of the constitution. (It still might be, for whatever reason. I just believe that this example would make it harder to overthrow the reform from this angle).
                              Here we go:

                              The Militia Act of 1792, Passed May 8, 1792, providing federal standards for the organization of the Militia.

                              An ACT more effectually to provide for the National Defence, by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States.
                              The Militia Act of 1792

                              This act was constitutional because Article 1, section 8 states:

                              Section 8 - Powers of Congress

                              The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
                              The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
                              "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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