NNIIRT 1L119 Nebo SVU Vs US stealth fighters

[Zinja]

I know i might be beating a dead donkey here but i really want to know the facts here.

Russia is priding its with its Nebo making derogatory remarks against US stealth fighters. Here are some of the claims

"The intent of this new radar was to extend the experience gained with the Nebo SV, and produce a design capable of detecting and tracking Very Low Observable (VLO) and Low Observable (LO) aircraft designs. Like the Nebo SV, this development project was led by Igor Krylov at NNIIRT. He was interviewed by Russian television in 2002, cite: "We can see the Stealth [F-117A] as clearly as any other plane"."

It seems quite an impressive radar incorporating modern technologies such as AESA and modern platforms such as COTS software etc. They seem to say that the radar can actually be intergrated with Russia's modern missiles such as the S-300PMU2.

It seems also the radar is designed specifically to counter the F-35, how true is this? Most of the technical language in the article just flew over my head, can someone explain to me in 'English' what this system really means to US's stealth fighters. I have tried looking around but couldn't get anything really.

Please help i need the facts on this issue as someone presented me with this system and is convinced Russia has hit a jackpot here against the US's stealth fighters.

Here is the conclusion of the article:

"In conclusion, the world's first mobile VHF AESA presents a credible capability and introduces all of the refinements seen in modern L-band and S-band acquisition radars into a VHF band design. The claims of a viable capability against conventional VLO/LO designs should be taken seriously [2]. The 1L119 Nebo SVU will provide a credible capability for a range of roles, including its use as a battery target acquisition radar for the S-300PMU-1/2 / SA-20 Gargoyle and S-400 / SA-21 Growler Surface to Air Missile systems."

NNIIRT Nebo SVU / Assessing Russia's First Mobile VHF AESA

I eagerly await your input.

[gunnut]

It means someone really wants to sell his radar. :P

Stealth doesn't mean invisible. It means "low observability." You can still see it, just not too clearly, and you're not sure if that's a jet on your screen. It could be a bird. Or a balloon. Or static.

If you know a stealth jet is coming at you and you stare at your screen long enough, you can see it. The problem is you never know, or almost never know, when and where a stealth jet might come at you. You simply can't afford to blanket your territory with that many radars and eyeballs to cover every square inch.

Radars can see stealth. A very resourceful Yugoslav commander figured out the pattern of our sorties and placed his radar right under them. His people stared at the screen right when our guys came in. He spammed some missiles and bagged an F-117.

[Zinja]

It means someone really wants to sell his radar. :P

Stealth doesn't mean invisible. It means "low observability." You can still see it, just not too clearly, and you're not sure if that's a jet on your screen. It could be a bird. Or a balloon. Or static.

If you know a stealth jet is coming at you and you stare at your screen long enough, you can see it. The problem is you never know, or almost never know, when and where a stealth jet might come at you. You simply can't afford to blanket your territory with that many radars and eyeballs to cover every square inch.

Radars can see stealth. A very resourceful Yugoslav commander figured out the pattern of our sorties and placed his radar right under them. His people stared at the screen right when our guys came in. He spammed some missiles and bagged an F-117.

Yeah, i hear what you are saying, im aware of that. What im asking is in practical terms what does this development mean for the US. Does it mean if a US adversary has one of these it can significantly alter the battle plan? Does this render US's stealth fighters basically obselete against this such system? And what would be the US's way around an adversary with this system?

What the Yugo commander did was a one in ...... We know that for that similar instance to repeat itself chances are very slim and therefore one cannot depend on such a system which pins its hopes on 'luck' against the US.

But this Nebo system seems to present a robust viable system not a DIY system like what the Yugo commander did. Can we say this Nebo system is a technological break through against stealth fighters?

[gunnut]

It just sounds like a sales pitch:

"Now even the Americans have begun to make such [VHF] radars as well, as they understand that their 'stealth' program has failed. These radars can detect aircraft constructed using 'stealth' technology."

1. Why would we make these radars because our stealth program has failed? Who else has stealth program? What do we want this type of radar for? To see our own planes?

2. It sounds like this radar is just a regular phased array radar in the meter band. This band has been used for decades by the Soviets and should be well understood by the west.

[Zinja]

It just sounds like a sales pitch:



1. Why would we make these radars because our stealth program has failed? Who else has stealth program? What do we want this type of radar for? To see our own planes?

2. It sounds like this radar is just a regular phased array radar in the meter band. This band has been used for decades by the Soviets and should be well understood by the west.

No doubt there is salesmanship going on in the article. Im therefore inviting the knowledgeable members of WAB to evaluate this article and give their input.

[scorefour]

From everything I've read, the US has always known about the ways to track stealth aircraft. The Russian radars are designed to take advantage of the shortcomings of stealth. These radars are somewhat effective for current generations of stealth technology, ie the F-22, but the Russians can't claim to know how it will do against the F-35, as its radar signature is still a closely guarded secret. Stealth technology has progressed substantially since the Raptor was designed in the late 80's. Stealth technology continues to progress, as new designs are on the drawing boards to counter improving radars. It's a cat and mouse game, but one where the US has at least a couple of years head start. This is never a very comfortable lead because most industrialized countries have almost the same computing power available to them.

[Zinja]

....These radars are somewhat effective for current generations of stealth technology, ie the F-22, but the Russians can't claim to know how it will do against the F-35, as its radar signature is still a closely guarded secret.

I think you have it the other way round. The F-35 though later than the F-22 is less stealthier than the F-22. The article seems to admit to this fact, consider this comment in the article "If deployed in robust numbers, the Nebo SVU will be capable of frustrating offensive operations by any air force not equipped with an F-22 or better capability." The F-22 is the cream of the crop.

[scorefour]

I think you have it the other way round. The F-35 though later than the F-22 is less stealthier than the F-22. The article seems to admit to this fact, consider this comment in the article "If deployed in robust numbers, the Nebo SVU will be capable of frustrating offensive operations by any air force not equipped with an F-22 or better capability." The F-22 is the cream of the crop.

The RCS of the F-35 is still classified, but from what I've read, numerous advances have been made since the F-22 was designed. This is one of those questions that we really can't answer since nobody knows for sure, but front aspect stealth on the F-35 is supposed to be extremely small.

[Zinja]

The RCS of the F-35 is still classified, but from what I've read, numerous advances have been made since the F-22 was designed. This is one of those questions that we really can't answer since nobody knows for sure, but front aspect stealth on the F-35 is supposed to be extremely small.

Yes, the RCS of the F-35 is classified and so is that of the F-22. The F-35 is the 'low' of the 'high' F-22. It cannot have a smaller RCS than the F-22.

[scorefour]

Yes, the RCS of the F-35 is classified and so is that of the F-22. The F-35 is the 'low' of the 'high' F-22. It cannot have a smaller RCS than the F-22.

What are you basing this on?

I recently heard an interview with a defense journalist from Jane's. The point was that the Russians would have an extremely difficult time finding the F-35 with their new radar. Yes, it can track small returns, but it also picks up all kinds of clutter. Unless you know where to look, the new radar is of little value.

[Zinja]

What are you basing this on?

Im basing it on this:

The U.S. Air Force, in it?s effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how ?stealthy? the F-22 is. It?s RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal golf ball.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20051125.aspx

[JA Boomer]

Yes, the RCS of the F-35 is classified and so is that of the F-22. The F-35 is the 'low' of the 'high' F-22. It cannot have a smaller RCS than the F-22.

Im basing it on this:

The U.S. Air Force, in it?s effort to get money to build more F-22s, has revealed just how ?stealthy? the F-22 is. It?s RCS (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal golf ball.

That does nothing to prove your point. What aspect are they talking about? What conditions?

It is said that the F-35A offers a lower radar return than the F-22A in the frontal aspect. This makes perfect sense as the F-35A benefited from the F-22A's technology and ten years of further stealth research. It is also smaller, gaining a RCS advantage.

Don’t get your panties in a knot because the 'low' end of the USAF tandem has a lower frontal radar return. The F-22A still has better overall stealth characteristics and is undoubtedly the more advanced and capable aircraft.

[VarSity]

This makes perfect sense as the F-35A benefited from the F-22A's technology and ten years of further stealth research.

Not meaning to sound stupid, and I might be missing your point but you seem to be under the impression the design for the F22 was finished 10 years ago and has not changed since then.

I think whilst the F-35 might have alot of stealth for its price tag if anything significant was discovered in between the F22 and F35 design phase I am sure it would have been incorporated into the F22 as well.

[Zinja]

That does nothing to prove your point. What aspect are they talking about? What conditions?

It does everything to prove my point. The 'aspect' is the F-22 has a smaller RCS than the F-35, that is my point. Even if there are advances after the production of the F-22, the USAF will not give that technology to the F-35 to give it an RCS smaller than the F-22 for pricisely the reason that the F-35 is the 'low' of the F-22.

[JA Boomer]

Not meaning to sound stupid, and I might be missing your point but you seem to be under the impression the design for the F22 was finished 10 years ago and has not changed since then.

I think whilst the F-35 might have alot of stealth for its price tag if anything significant was discovered in between the F22 and F35 design phase I am sure it would have been incorporated into the F22 as well.

It does everything to prove my point. The 'aspect' is the F-22 has a smaller RCS than the F-35, that is my point. Even if there are advances after the production of the F-22, the USAF will not give that technology to the F-35 to give it an RCS smaller than the F-22 for pricisely the reason that the F-35 is the 'low' of the F-22.

Oh man. I'm not going to spend too much time on this because it seems quite logical/reasonable/rational to me.

1. All of the research and tech that went into the F-22A got used in the F-35A development.

2. Let's face it, one of the most significant aspects of radar return: the shape of the forward fuselage, was most likely decided upon and frozen before the final shape of the F-35A (AA-1) fuselage was even being built. So yes the F-35A has the advantage of more stealth research than the F-22A. AND NO, Lockheed and the USAF aren’t going to go back and change the molds/dyes/machinery/equipment to build the forward sections of the F-22A at a cost of millions and millions of dollars to insert this most recent research.

3. The F-35A is smaller than the F-22A by a fair margin, it has one less engine to hide (compressor blades), and so it already has an advantage in the RCS game.

Like I said, the F-22A has better stealth characteristics and is the more capable aircraft. But as I have pointed out, it doesn’t take much examining to indicate that the F-35A may have a lower RCS from a 100% forward 'aspect' (that's what I mean, in case you missed it).

I don't know if it does or doesn't, and neither do you. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it does, based on the reasons I have outlined.

Ignorance is bliss.