Marine General Counseled for Comments

[troung]

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/arti...03155509990004
Updated: 08:48 PM EST
Marine General Counseled for Comments
'It's Fun to Shoot Some People,' Said Veteran of Iraq, Afghanistan
By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, AP


WASHINGTON (Feb. 3) - A decorated Marine Corps general said, ''It's fun to shoot some people'' and poked fun at the manhood of Afghans as he described the wars U.S. troops are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

His boss, the commandant of the Marine Corps, said Thursday that the comments reflected ''the unfortunate and harsh realities of war'' but that the general has been asked to watch his words in public.

Lt. Gen. James Mattis, a career infantry officer who is now in charge of developing better ways to train and equip Marines, made the comments Tuesday while speaking to a forum in San Diego.

According to an audio recording, he said, ''Actually, it's a lot of fun to fight. You know, it's a hell of a hoot. ... It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right up front with you, I like brawling.''

He added, ''You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them.''

His comments were met with laughter and applause from the audience. Mattis was speaking during a panel discussion hosted by the Armed Forces Communications and Electronics Association, a spokeswoman for the general said.

Thursday, Gen. Mike Hagee, commandant of the Marine Corps, issued a statement saying, ''Lt. Gen. Mattis often speaks with a great deal of candor. I have counseled him concerning his remarks and he agrees he should have chosen his words more carefully.''

Hagee also said, ''While I understand that some people may take issue with the comments made by him, I also know he intended to reflect the unfortunate and harsh realities of war.''

Among Marines, Mattis is regarded as a fighting general and an expert in the art of warfare. Among his decorations are the Bronze Star with a combat distinguishing device and a combat action ribbon, awarded for close-quarters fighting.

He is currently the commanding general of the Marine Corps Combat Development Command in Quantico, Va., and deputy commandant for combat development.

Marine Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said it was up to Mattis to address his own comments, but he added, ''All of us who are leaders have a responsibility in our words and our actions to provide the right example all the time for those who look to us for leadership.''

Pace spoke to a Pentagon press conference. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said he had not read Mattis' words and deferred to Pace.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Muslim civil liberties group, called on the Pentagon to discipline Mattis for the remarks.

''We do not need generals who treat the grim business of war as a sporting event,'' said the council's executive director, Nihad Awad. ''These disturbing remarks are indicative of an apparent indifference to the value of human life.''

Pace and Hagee praised the general's service.

''His actions and those of his troops clearly show that he understands the value of proper leadership and the value of human life,'' Pace said.

Hagee called him ''one of this country's bravest and most experienced military leaders.''

He said the commitment of Marines ''helps to provide us the fortitude to take the lives of those who oppress others or threaten this nation's security. This is not something we relish, yet we accept it as a reality in our profession of arms.''

Hagee said he was confident Mattis would continue to serve with distinction.

Mattis' comments were reported by the television station KNSD in San Diego, and the audio recording was posted on its Web site www.nbcsandiego.com .

As a lieutenant colonel, Mattis led an assault battalion into Kuwait during the first war with Iraq. During the war in Afghanistan, he commanded the 1st Marine Expeditionary Brigade and subsequently Task Force 58, which fought in southern Afghanistan as the Taliban fell.

During the second war in Iraq, he commanded the 1st Marine Division during the invasion and also when the unit returned to Iraq for counterinsurgency operations last year.

In a letter to his troops before they redeployed to Iraq last March, Mattis warned them of ''hard, dangerous work.''

''The enemy will try to manipulate you into hating all Iraqis,'' he wrote. ''Do not allow the enemy that victory. With strong discipline, solid faith, unwavering alertness, and undiminished chivalry to the innocent, we will carry out this mission.''

He is not the first senior military officer since the Sept. 11 attacks to stir controversy with his comments.

Lt. Gen. William Boykin, a senior military intelligence officer, was criticized for speeches he made at evangelical Christian churches. He said that America's enemy was Satan, that God had put President Bush in the White House and that one Muslim Somali warlord was an idol-worshipper.

Boykin later issued a written statement apologizing and saying he did not mean to insult Islam.

A Pentagon investigation concluded that Boykin violated regulations by failing to make clear he was not speaking in an official capacity in the speeches beginning in January 2002.


AP-NY-02-03-05 19:41 EST

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press

[Leader]

He calls it the way he sees it. He's not a politician. So when he shoots a terrorist bastard, he says he's happy.

you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway.

I completely agree. You got to be a very little man to go around beating women.

[Bluesman]

I now know that I would enjoy very much shooting the kind of people he described. And I can tell you exactly when that epiphany hit me: after I watched the Danny Pearl execution and beheading video.

I watched it by mistake; I didn't know that's what was on the computer screen my colleagues at my Iraqi analysis office at NSA were watching when I walked over, and by the time it hit me, I had watched everything but the first 60 seconds or so.

And as I went back to my desk, I knew something about myself that I'd just as soon never have found out: I can cold-bloodedly kill somebody that is not an immediate threat to me or mine. If I were somehow to find myself in Gitmo with a loaded pistol and access to the cells there...I'd ask for more ammo, and go from one cell to the next, and kill everybody in an orange jumpsuit. I believe I'd sleep like a baby that night.

I hate them. I imagine this Marine has seen all he needed to see to come to the same conclusion: this world is better off with these animals gone from it. He wants to do something that helps that goal along; so do I. I don't give a dam' who calls me on it, either. I'm not apologizing. It's what I feel and think, and I'm not at all sorry about it, either. I'm now quite comfortable with my hatred for evil.

I do not hate Islam, and I don't believe the general said he does, either. I'm leery of it, as I see it producing a dam' sight more bad than good these days, but I do not see myself or the general at war with Greater Islam.

But the people he would shoot...we wouldn't miss having them around, I can promise you that. So, what should he apologize for?

[Officer of Engineers]

So, what should he apologize for?

A very good sniper friend of ours once call me to attention. "For not being more than what he expects himself to be."

[lemontree]

This is war
Most civilians don't understand it. They can't do our jobs but want us to be politically correct for their comfort.
I wonder if these people found 9/11 politically correct?

[Officer of Engineers]

Captain,

Yes, this is war which is why we MUST be more than that. It's not about being politically correct. It's about being less than what you can be.

If you accept less, you are less. That is more true as you go up the Chain of Command. WE, as in the Officer Corps, ARE the standards to which we must present to our people under our command. If we accept less of ourselves, we cannot ask more of our people. It has to be the other way around. We demand more of ourselves than we would ask of our people.

[Officer of Engineers]

I might also add that reading the General's comments afterwards, he knew he made a mistake.

[Jay]

pretty much, people look up on him, he's a pretty senior officer, but I think he said it in a more jovial way. I did see the video, and the people were laughing and clapping after he said those words.

[Bluesman]

Well, I'm here to tell you that I dam' sure DO mean it.

I really do want to kill these guys. No apologies.

I do not think this reduces me in any way. I do not think it invalidates my leadership; I do not think it is accepting less from myself.

[lemontree]

I really do want to kill these guys. No apologies.

I do not think this reduces me in any way. I do not think it invalidates my leadership; I do not think it is accepting less from myself.

Colonel sir,
Bluesman, has expressed what I mean't. The General just gave out what every soldier feels, especially when dealing with an enemy for whom there is scorn.
Like the US felt against IJA, the allied feeling against the Nazis, the Soviet feeling against the Nazis.
These are the feelings that drives one to fight back, the motivating factor.
However, I agree that these 'feelings' should be limited to winning the fight and not for actions like the 'rape of Berlin' by the Soviet soldiers.

[Officer of Engineers]

Well, I'm here to tell you that I dam' sure DO mean it.

I really do want to kill these guys. No apologies.

I do not think this reduces me in any way. I do not think it invalidates my leadership; I do not think it is accepting less from myself.

No, MSgt, it does not invalidate you nor your leadership. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with the privledge and the rank earned by the senior leadership.

I want to kill these guys. I want to burn them to kingdom come.

But I will NOT give cause, even by suggestion, to embarrass my country's values and my people's honour by my words and deeds. What I say in private is my own personal affair. What I speak in public while in uniform can be considered the policy of my country and with that comes extreme responsibility in protecting the honour and the values of the very flags we serve.

The speech that I give to my people before going into combat is one of determination and dedication to a ruthless execution. What I tell civilians, however, ... well, I don't make speeches to civilians.

[Bluesman]

Colonel sir,
Bluesman, has expressed what I mean't. The General just gave out what every soldier feels, especially when dealing with an enemy for whom there is scorn.
Like the US felt against IJA, the allied feeling against the Nazis, the Soviet feeling against the Nazis.
These are the feelings that drives one to fight back, the motivating factor.
However, I agree that these 'feelings' should be limited to winning the fight and not for actions like the 'rape of Berlin' by the Soviet soldiers.

Oh, absolutely right on THAT point.

I would not violate any orders to satisfy my own feelings. (Gitmo hyperbole included. I hate 'em...but not enough to damage our own efforts against 'em.)

And I'm specific in my antipathy: no shooting a jihadi's kid, no abusing a mujahedin's wife. No carpet bombing Fallujah, no storming a building with hostages inside if their safety can be secured.

But the general expressed what I feel: I exult when I see their dead, when I have had a hand in finding the right door to kick in, and getting the AAR after the guys I support have done the kicking. When I see strike footage, when I get to 'adjust downward' the terrorist's Order of Battle by placing a little red 'X' next to a known Bad Guy's name, or when I am informed that analysis I've done will identify a collaborator...I am elated.

I don't want to just defeat them, I want to kill them, and humiliate them while I do it. If aQ suddenly quit fighting their so-called Holy War tomorrow, I'd advocate going after them just as hard as we are now. I do not intend to allow them to just quit, like nothing happened. We owe 'em some justice.

No quarter. Kill 'em all.

[Bluesman]

No, MSgt, it does not invalidate you nor your leadership. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with the privledge and the rank earned by the senior leadership.

I want to kill these guys. I want to burn them to kingdom come.

But I will NOT give cause, even by suggestion, to embarrass my country's values and my people's honour by my words and deeds. What I say in private is my own personal affair. What I speak in public while in uniform can be considered the policy of my country and with that comes extreme responsibility in protecting the honour and the values of the very flags we serve.

The speech that I give to my people before going into combat is one of determination and dedication to a ruthless execution. What I tell civilians, however, ... well, I don't make speeches to civilians.

I follow you. I accept that the general's words may be hurtful in a way to the enterprise. I don't think it SHOULD, but I accept that it may.

[dalem]

I now know that I would enjoy very much shooting the kind of people he described. And I can tell you exactly when that epiphany hit me: after I watched the Danny Pearl execution and beheading video.

I first felt this years ago when a close friend of mine told me about the horrible things her mother's boyfriend had done to her and gotten away with, and that she knew where he lived.

I knew at that point that I was capable of certain things. And I'll tell you, it felt good to know that. I haven't needed to watch any of the beheading videos to know what I'd do if given the chance.

She wisely refused to tell me anything more about the guy.

-dale

[Bluesman]

I first felt this years ago when a close friend of mine told me about the horrible things her mother's boyfriend had done to her and gotten away with, and that she knew where he lived.

I knew at that point that I was capable of certain things. And I'll tell you, it felt good to know that. I haven't needed to watch any of the beheading videos to know what I'd do if given the chance.

She wisely refused to tell me anything more about the guy.

-dale

Yeah, like that. In the tangle of Right and Wrong, sometimes I can advocate what civilized society refuses to countenance. It would not be legal for you to do what you wanted - felt a drive - to do.

And I know that there are people that are uncomfortable with the idea that I could cold-bloodely kill in their name, that I am not consumed with the fashionable and 'only human' regrets that I may have to do something horrible to another human being.

Well, I don't feel guilty that I harbor no sense of mercy towards these animals with opposable thumbs. I am not wracked with doubt about my humanity because I derive satisfaction from killing the human vermin that infest the lives of so many other innocent people.

I save all that for the innocents that may be victims if I do my job poorly. To my knowledge (and pretty close to certainty), I've never so erred. But it keeps me up some nights THAT I MAY someday. I am constantly aware that something I may do or fail to do will have permanent and horrible consequences for somebody that doesn't deserve it. THAT is what haunts me, and, I hope, makes me good at my job.

But I have not a shred of empathy for the guys the general said were fun to shoot.

But OoE, I understand your point. If the general owes an apology, it's not because he's wrong; it's because he's expected to be an eloquent advocate for The Effort, and some people just don't want to hear that killing ANYbody is a desirable goal, and therefore he has detracted from The Effort.