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  • Asia: Too much democracy..

    Just read this in the latest Newsweek.

    original link: Unrest Plagues Many of Asia's Young Democracies | Newsweek International Edition | Newsweek.com


    Even as China and Burma have struggled recently to rebuild from the Sichuan earthquake and Cyclone Nargis, disasters have struck a number of other Asian states. But these are shocks of the man-made kind.

    The countries in question, which include some of Asia's strongest economies, have suffered enormous street protests, parliamentary meltdowns, threats of military intervention and other forms of bare-knuckled politics. In South Korea, tens of thousands of angry demonstrators have paraded nightly through Seoul—the biggest protests in two decades—demanding the ouster of the new president, Lee Myung-Bak.

    Thailand has been racked by similar spasms, including massive marches and a parliamentary vote to censure Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej, which he only barely survived. Taiwan's legislature broke into another of its famous melees in late June when screaming opposition M.P.s tried to physically block the foreign minister from speaking. And in India, talks on the U.S. nuclear deal collapsed yet again thanks to the obstruction of communist parties.

    In most of these cases, democratic excesses have undermined the national interest. In South Korea, for example, President Lee is pushing free-trade deals on a nation that has benefited hugely from globalization. And for India, the nuclear deal offers access to U.S. technology and virtually free membership in the club of nuclear-armed nations. Yet such goals are slipping away in states that are supposed to rank among the most successful democracies in the non-Western world. South Korea, Taiwan and India are often praised for their freewheeling public debates, broad press freedoms, expanding civil liberties and strong economic performances.

    So what explains the breakdowns? While there are individual factors at work, the struggles share some underlying common causes. First is a lack of democratic maturity. It's crucial to remember that in South Korea and Taiwan, democracy is barely 20 years old; in Thailand it's about 35, and even in India it's only 60. Habits formed under earlier periods of military or authoritarian rule die hard. Traditions of corrupt, highly personal, big-man-dominated, winner-take-all politics persist, turning every political skirmish into a struggle for survival.

    There are already signs that the unrest is dying down—Taiwan is nowhere near as fractious as it used to be, and the Korean protests are slowing, with Lee's standing inching up. Short of another coup in Thailand, the prime minister and the constitutional order will also likely survive. But the underlying forces that allow, even encourage, protest to paralyze reform in these nations remain. And that's bad news at a time when spiraling food and energy costs and a global economic slowdown make decisive action more important than ever.

    On the surface, none of these crises had much to do with profound questions of democracy. The Korean blowup started with a food fight. Protests first broke out in April after President Lee decided to resume U.S. beef imports after a four-year ban. Exaggerated media accounts of mad-cow disease drove ordinary citizens, including many high-school students, onto the streets for orderly candlelight protest vigils. But the students were soon overshadowed by agitators from a variety of left-wing civic groups, including aggressive trade unions, who jumped on the cause as an excuse to protest the rest of Lee's agenda, which stresses improved ties with Washington and spending cuts.

    A similar escalation occurred in Thailand. The protests started in May over economic concerns and expanded to include nationalist complaints over a border dispute with Cambodia. But these issues were proxies for a deeper struggle between supporters of Thaksin Shinawatra, the ousted populist prime minister, and his opponents, who include monarchists, the military and others who see Thaksin's emphasis on rural and working-class empowerment as destabilizing. Thaksin's opponents are now trying to force his ally Samak out of office, and calling for less democracy: they've even pushed plans to lower the number of elected seats in Parliament and have hinted darkly that another coup, like the one that forced Thaksin from power in September 2006, may be needed. "The campaign is much wider than the street protests," says Chris Baker, a Bangkok-based author of numerous books on Thai politics. "The point is to push Thaksin and his supporters to the back burner." Sunai Phasuk, a consultant with Human Rights Watch, says that the opposition "have a right to demonstrate, but calling for military intervention [and] inciting violence is irresponsible."

    The Thai and South Korean protests started out responsibly—that is, within the political process. Korea held presidential elections in December and a parliamentary vote in April, both of which Lee swept by huge margins. Thaksin's proxy party won the Thai election in December. Since then, however, the losers have refused to take no for an answer, turning to spoiler tactics to get their way.

    Even in India, often touted as the world's largest and one of its more stable democracies, vicious illegal tactics remain common. Parliament is so chaotic that the well-respected speaker of the lower house, Somnath Chatterjee, recently threatened to quit, screaming on camera that the opposition was "working overtime to finish democracy in the country." Disgruntled activists regularly stage crippling national strikes—often enforced by club-wielding thugs. They attack government property like buses and trains, and, in the case of Singh's coalition partners, the Communist Party of India (Marxist), do all they can to slow the working of government in order to press their own narrow agendas.

    These campaigns expose the extent to which Asian democracies are still twisted by authoritarian traditions. Larry Diamond, a foremost democracy expert at Stanford University, traces the protest ringleaders in Korea to "a radical anti-American, left-wing generation that grew up during the 1980s in the resistance to military rule … and has now reached positions of leadership in civil society, the media and elsewhere." Today they use the same hardball tactics they honed against dictators to undermine democratic leaders. In Taiwan, the impulse to follow "an undemocratic path to pull someone down" comes naturally to a society with "a long tradition of rule by humans, rather than rule of law," says Prof. Liao Da-chi of National Sun Yat-sen University in Kaohsiung. In Thailand, everyone is familiar with military coups, and behaves accordingly. Even Thaksin's supporters show what Diamond calls a "willingness to violate the spirit of democracy."

    Asian leaders also fear retribution if they lose elections, which can inspire desperate measures. Prof. Kim Hyong Joon of Seoul's Myongji University calls this "the politics of the vortex." Two of South Korea's last five presidents were criminally prosecuted by their successors, and President Roh Moo Hyun was impeached just a year after winning office in 2003. In February, when Lee became the first conservative president in a decade, he moved quickly to overturn many liberal accomplishments. The same basic pattern also holds in Thailand and in Taiwan, where prosecutors launched a corruption probe of ex-president Chen Shui-bian just hours after he stepped down in May.

    Corruption actually raises the stakes in a number of ways: it makes office-holding in places like India and elsewhere extremely lucrative. That makes leaders even more reluctant to leave office graciously. Being forced into the opposition can mean a serious financial loss—as well as possible legal trouble.

    Fortunately, there are recent signs that Asian voters are slowly starting to reject politics as blood sport. Roh's impeachment earned him great public sympathy in Korea, boosting his party to a parliamentary win in 2004, and a majority of voters are now turning on the current protests as well. "If political attacks become too irrational or extreme, people come to their senses," says Prof. Lee Jung Hee of Hankook University of Foreign Studies in Seoul. The president's approval rating has rebounded from single digits in early June to about 20 percent today (several apologies and a cabinet reshuffle didn't hurt). Taiwan has grown much more stable since early this decade, when opposition leaders refused to even call the then President Chen by his title, tried to oust him through street protests and claimed he'd rigged an assassination on his own life (despite a total lack of evidence). Professor Liao says those events were actually a "vaccination" that made Taiwanese democracy stronger.

    The real cost of the chaos, however, is the policies these nations have had to abandon in the process. South Korea's growth rate has slipped from 7 percent in 2002 to about 4 percent this year, and it could badly have used a shot in the arm. But since the protests began, Lee has had to step away from some of his bolder reform proposals. Thailand, too, faces a stalled economy, a serious food crisis and a stark rich-poor divide—which its gridlocked government is unlikely to address. In India, while Congress has weathered a many storms, reform has also ground to a halt, and the grand nuclear deal—which could have finally vaulted India into true great-power status—seems unlikely to survive attacks from the left. Constitutions and the trappings of democracy will probably persevere, in other words, as will individual leaders, but that's cold consolation for the region's citizens, who face lean times in the months ahead.




    I can only say, good things take time.

  • #2
    And in India, talks on the U.S. nuclear deal collapsed yet again thanks to the obstruction of communist parties....

    ...In India, while Congress has weathered a many storms, reform has also ground to a halt, and the grand nuclear deal—which could have finally vaulted India into true great-power status—seems unlikely to survive attacks from the left. Constitutions and the trappings of democracy will probably persevere, in other words, as will individual leaders, but that's cold consolation for the region's citizens, who face lean times in the months ahead.
    How wrong; and it is still amusing to me that people still try to judge democracies using certain examples or behaviours of various different parties in power at the time; often forgetting that democracies are dynamic societies.

    As for the Commies halting the Nuclear deal; that was true uptil now; the ruling government has found new friends in parliament, and no longer needs the support of the Communist parties to stay in power. The deal is finally all go from India.

    That being said, however much democracy may slow down things, it is still necessary to discuss things over as a nation and address all the issues and concerns of all the people before going ahead with major decisions which will impact the entire nation.
    Last edited by Tronic; 08 Jul 08,, 03:11.
    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

    Comment


    • #3
      Mere journalistic calisthenics.

      Somnath Chatterjee, the Indian Speaker of Parliament, bulldog like in physical attributes is a sanctimonious Communist and like most Indian Communists, having rich parents and property to indulge in such pastimes as Communism.

      Being sanctimonious he wants to be a school teacher in the Parliament, treating Parliamentarians as children. Being a Communist, he wants to be authoritarian so much so, true to Communist ideology, he wants to muzzle the media and Judiciary; he has a running battle with the latter. Obviously, many do not appreciate the same.

      It is true that there is ruckus at times since the emotions over issues run high. But to say that Somnath Chatterjee ''screams'' is a travesty of the facts and more of a journalistic indulgence.

      Likewise the way the US nuclear deal has been explained in the article, it would appear that India is missing out on a great deal. That is only half the truth. The US will only acquiesce if India agrees to the 123 Agreement and the Hyde Act. In other words, India, forever will sign off the right to test in the nuclear field. In short, India will sign away its sovereignty forever. Thus, the article conveniently forgets to mention this issue. And signing away off one's sovereignty is surely a very emotive subject for a country that has recently come out of colonial subjugation. Interesting is also a fact that such a momentous deal has not been put to vote in the Indian Parliament and is being done unilaterally by the Govt. At the same time, it must be mentioned that the deal will not be on stream till voted through in the US Senate. Hence, the US Senate reserves the right to accept or reject, while the Indian Parliament does not have this luxury!! Why should it not be an emotive issue. Indians are not sheep and its democracy is no cosmetic trapping either.

      It is again a journalistic skulduggery to state that ''exaggerated'' media hype of the mad cow disease caused the banning of the import of beef. Even if we accept that it was exaggerated, it does mean that it was present. Therefore, who will take the risk? When imports of prawns etc are stopped in the West just on the suspicious that it is contaminated, Newsweek conveniently forgets to to mention the exaggeration done to save the consumer from even the faintest chance of disease. Why should the luxury that is extended in the West not be acceptable for Asia?

      India, often touted as the world's largest and one of its more stable democracies, does have vicious illegal tactics. There is nothing to tout about India being the world's largest democracy or that it has always been stable. It is a fact that even the blind can see. As far as illegal tactics is concerned, in India it turns physical, while in the West the illegal activities in politics and elections is sophisticated and through liberal use of money, favours or smearing of character of the candidates to such an extent that it is embarrassingly indecent. Much could be written.

      As I have said earlier there are many warts in democracies the world over, but there is one shining beacon that guides us inspite of democracy's warts - Freedom.

      That unfortunate is not the case with Communist totalitarian regimes where the mind, speech and activity is controlled and any protest, in any form, becomes an anti national act or the work of ''splittists''.

      Democracy is an ongoing process and there is no final benchmark to state Democracy has arrived. The aim of Democracy is to ensure that Freedom of the People is held paramount and to do so, it evolves daily so that avenues are searched constantly to ensure the minimum of controls are exercised by the Govt machinery and society and one is allowed to breathe free!

      The very fact that Newsweek could publish this article and the very fact that those held in ridicule could read and give a befitting reply highlights the beauty of Democracy and proves that Democracy is a great vehicle of Freedom and of Free People. This type of an article could not have come out in a Communist totalitarian regime. The Editor would have been locked up and the key thrown away and what is more he would have hung from the nearest lamp post to the cheers of the Peasants and Labourers with grim looking apparatchiks applauding in Mao suits!
      Last edited by Ray; 08 Jul 08,, 03:23.


      "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

      I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

      HAKUNA MATATA

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tronic View Post
        That was true uptil now; the ruling government has found new friends in parliament, and no longer needs the support of the Communist parties to stay in power. The deal is finally all go from India.

        That being said, however much democracy may slow down things, it is still necessary to discuss things over as a nation and address all the issues and concerns of all the people before going ahead with major decisions which will impact the entire nation.

        Good for India people.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wow, what a load of thinly-veiled bigotry and twisted-analysis! Someone remind us exactly how long is the unbroken democratic legacy in Spain? Portugal? France? Germany? How free from subversion and manipulation democracy is in those countries (and others as well)? How "democratic" were the countries that subverted voting-rights on racial, ethnic, sexist, economic etc basis? Are their "newfound" garbs also mere "constitution and trappings of democracy"? No consolations for those regions' citizenry?

          I am not trying to start a "Torn shirt!" ... "Open Fly!" debate on whose democracy is more authentic, old, respectable, embedded-in-tradition etc. I am putting up this rhetoric counter-point to the writer's assertion that tradition or culture is somehow responsible for Asia's problems with democracy. It is really rubbish. All traditions and cultures at one point of time or another had some mechanism for democratic governance, conversely all traditions and cultures also fell prey to despotic governments at one point of time or another.

          Democracy is a hard practice for everyone. But it a noble practice and something worth pursuing.

          To those who wish to use this POS as apologia: Democracy is a good thing if it is being pursued; it is a meaningless bunch of gibberish if you sit back and wait for the time to come.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ray View Post
            The very fact that Newsweek could publish this article and the very fact that those held in ridicule could read and give a befitting reply that Democracy is a great vehicle of Freedom and of Free People. This type of an article could not have come out in a Communist totalitarian regime. The Editor would have been locked up and the key thrown away and what is more he would have hung from the nearest lamp post to the cheers of the Peasants and Labourers with grim looking apparatchiks applauding in Mao suits!
            All good until the last paragraph, but Ray, why are you always so extreme?

            Comment


            • #7
              My post excited you since it was a defence of Asia.

              The last paragraph did not please you since it was in the defence of Democracy the world over!!

              QED!


              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

              HAKUNA MATATA

              Comment


              • #8
                The US will only acquiesce if India agrees to the 123 Agreement and the Hyde Act. In other words, India, forever will sign off the right to test in the nuclear field. In short, India will sign away its sovereignty forever
                Ray Sir, Do you really believe this is going to happen? While I don't deny that Hyde is explicit in saying that deal would be off if India tests,my belief is if we really need to test in national Interest we will,Hyde act notwithstanding.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's not about pleasing someone.

                  If it's only in this post, I wouldn't say "always".

                  But you consistently show the aggression with exaggerated phrase towards communism like there is not tomorrow. A simple political debate turns into a struggle for life and death.

                  You don't have to shout to get your voice heard. Democracy right?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hamurana
                    You don't have to shout to get your voice heard. Democracy right?
                    at times democracy is outshouting others.Ray Sir, has a beef against commies because of duplicity they exhibit.If I can be bugged because i have to endure leftist Profs in my university,Sir has the misfortune to live in a commie ruled state. Most of commie leaders in India are millionaires,but then I guess contradiction is supposed to take communism forward.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by physicsmonk View Post
                      Ray Sir, Do you really believe this is going to happen? While I don't deny that Hyde is explicit in saying that deal would be off if India tests,my belief is if we really need to test in national Interest we will,Hyde act notwithstanding.
                      So it appears.


                      "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                      I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                      HAKUNA MATATA

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am sure most people get what Ray was trying to say even he wasn't shouting. But anyway, that's beside the point.

                        Leaders are suppose to lead the country and its people to a better life for all.

                        It's always unfortunate and angering to see leaders fail their people, I think that's more of the case in communist countries as they are less bound by the law, and can easily manipulate the system.

                        Transparency problem again.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hamurana View Post
                          It's not about pleasing someone.

                          If it's only in this post, I wouldn't say "always".

                          But you consistently show the aggression with exaggerated phrase towards communism like there is not tomorrow. A simple political debate turns into a struggle for life and death.

                          You don't have to shout to get your voice heard. Democracy right?
                          I live in a Communist state that has ruled us for more than 20 years.

                          Therefore, I am not an armchair Communist observer.

                          If they (the Communists) kept politics simple, but their goon tactics makes everything a case of life and limb and that is why Newsweek writes what it writes.

                          You have to shout in a democracy since all are endowed by Freedom to air their views.

                          Vox Populi, Vox Dei!

                          The Voice of the People is the Voice of God!


                          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                          HAKUNA MATATA

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hamurana View Post
                            I am sure most people get what Ray was trying to say even he wasn't shouting. But anyway, that's beside the point.

                            Leaders are suppose to lead the country and its people to a better life for all.

                            It's always unfortunate and angering to see leaders fail their people, I think that's more of the case in communist countries as they are less bound by the law, and can easily manipulate the system.

                            Transparency problem again.
                            If my words appear shouting so be it.

                            And the your words and your compatriots words are that of meek submission? Typical Communist chicanery and clever pious platitudinous sleight of hand. I see it daily and so I detect.

                            For Freedom, for fighting bigotry, for contesting Communist falsehood couched in pretty words, one has to battle for justice. Communists don't give way like gentlemen. They are goons and street fighters. Have you not seen the way they overthrew the govts under the guise of Revolutions? The Communis leaders don't shout, they just eliminate i.e. kill their opponents - Trotsky, Cultural Revolution et al!

                            It is better to shout than be skilled murderers!

                            Even if you watch the Communist opposition to the Nuclear Deal, you will find that it laced with pious ramblings when in actuality they are acting as clients of China!
                            Last edited by Ray; 08 Jul 08,, 04:21.


                            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                            HAKUNA MATATA

                            Comment

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