Byzantine and Rome

[philipjd]

A lot of confusion seems to surround these empires, whether they are the same, 'son of', or totally seperate.

Brief outline.

The Roman empire under Constantine (the Great) moved it's Imperial Capital to a small town called Byzantium which had been suitably embellished and expanded then given the Constantinople.

During the reign of Dioclecian (spelling?) the administrtive and militry burdens on the Empire were found to be too great for a single location to control. Hence both the military and administrtion were split between Constantinople and Rome, with, and this is the important part, the Emperor in Constantinople, but a second subsidiary 'Emperor' in Rome.

The Eastern Empire was much more viable economically than the west, and a lot of in fighting occurred between the two 'emperors' (and their subordinates). Eventually given human nature, the two sides broke apart formally as well as in actuality.

Hence the question, which is the Roman Empire?

In my view - the Byzantinie Empire IS the Roman empire, there is no difference between the two. The fact that the capital moved to Constantinople is irrelevent. The confusion arises due to the existance of a state with it's capital in Rome also calling itself the Roman Empire.

BTW - a historian would probably pull my summary apart but I've tried to keep it brief and, in outline, it is correct. Reality (as usual) was a lot more complex.

Cheers
Phil

[Praxus]

It was called the Roman Empire to my knowledge, for one reason and one reason only, because the Government was in Rome. The official name was of course the Senate and the People of Rome (that is to say, the city of Rome). So it seems that you can't seperate Rome from the Roman Empire. I may be wrong though. I believe a more acurate term would be, "an offshoot" to the Roman Empire.

Thanks for the brief summary however, I don't know to much about late Roman History.

[ASG]

It was called the Roman Empire to my knowledge, for one reason and one reason only, because the Government was in Rome. The official name was of course the Senate and the People of Rome (that is to say, the city of Rome). So it seems that you can't seperate Rome from the Roman Empire. I may be wrong though. I believe a more acurate term would be, "an offshoot" to the Roman Empire.

Thanks for the brief summary however, I don't know to much about late Roman History.

LOL, You really hate Byzantium, don't you...??

LOL.

[ASG]

A lot of confusion seems to surround these empires, whether they are the same, 'son of', or totally seperate.

Brief outline.

The Roman empire under Constantine (the Great) moved it's Imperial Capital to a small town called Byzantium which had been suitably embellished and expanded then given the Constantinople.

During the reign of Dioclecian (spelling?) the administrtive and militry burdens on the Empire were found to be too great for a single location to control. Hence both the military and administrtion were split between Constantinople and Rome, with, and this is the important part, the Emperor in Constantinople, but a second subsidiary 'Emperor' in Rome.

The Eastern Empire was much more viable economically than the west, and a lot of in fighting occurred between the two 'emperors' (and their subordinates). Eventually given human nature, the two sides broke apart formally as well as in actuality.

Hence the question, which is the Roman Empire?

In my view - the Byzantinie Empire IS the Roman empire, there is no difference between the two. The fact that the capital moved to Constantinople is irrelevent. The confusion arises due to the existance of a state with it's capital in Rome also calling itself the Roman Empire.

BTW - a historian would probably pull my summary apart but I've tried to keep it brief and, in outline, it is correct. Reality (as usual) was a lot more complex.

Phil, As you have already mentioned, the Byzantines took their name from Byzantium, an ancient city on the Bosphorus, the waterway linking the Black Sea to the Aegean Sea. The Roman Emperor Constantine had renamed this city Constantinople in the fourth century and made it a sister capital of his empire.

Byzantine, in my view is not to be called the Roman Empire.

THE Eastern Roman Empire(Byzantium) separated from the Western Empire in 395AD.

By 490AD there was no Western Empire left. But the Eastern Empire(Byzantium) was only begining to peak around that time.

[Praxus]

LOL, You really hate Byzantium, don't you...??

LOL.

Ummm no. The Byzantine Empire simply doesn't deserve the name of the Roman Empire, because it was no longer a Roman Empire!

[griftadan]

sooo... after the west fell, how long before the eastern empire became officially known as the byzantium empire?

[FlyingCaddy]

First, I would like to clarify that Diocletian was emperor prior to Constantine, and his Control Center was located in Nicomedia.

I would say the break between Rome and Byzantium, historically, occurred between the Death of Justinian and the reign of Heraclius. This marked the end of several trully Roman facets in Byzantium. First, the offical language of government went from Latin to Greek, second the emperor's court began to radically change from its Roman procedures and positions to uniquely Byzantine positions, third, the empire stop depending on foreign mercenaries and created a new system of raising an army (the Theme system), and finally, the Emperors on the Bosporus gave up any hopes of reclaiming the Western Empire.

From the respect of the Byzantines, they always were the Roman empire, though thier language changed, the fact was even at Rome's height the East primarily spoke Greek, so it wasnt too much of a change for the people. Second of all the people claiming lineage back to Rome, ie the Holy Roman Empire, only the Byzantines could state a legitimate claim based on sucession back to Augustus Caesar. In addition, the Byzantines called themselves the Romanoi, or Greek for Romans, to the Byzantines, the Empire didnt fall it just lost some dead weight.

[Ironduke]

Old thread, but...

Phil, As you have already mentioned, the Byzantines took their name from Byzantium, an ancient city on the Bosphorus, the waterway linking the Black Sea to the Aegean Sea. The Roman Emperor Constantine had renamed this city Constantinople in the fourth century and made it a sister capital of his empire.

The term "Byzantine" was never used during the history of the Byzantine Empire, it was invented about a century after the fall of Constantinople and came into popular use in the 18th century. It was called in the West "Empire of the Greeks" (Imperium Graecorum), in the Empire "Roman Empire" or "Romania".

So it seems that you can't separate Rome from the Roman Empire. I may be wrong though. I believe a more acurate term would be, "an offshoot" to the Roman Empire.

Rome was nothing more than the spiritual capital of the Roman Empire since at least the late 3rd century. The Empire was effectively administered from elsewhere. Constantinople was founded by Constantine to be the new, sole capital of the Empire. It is like comparing Amsterdam with The Hague. Amsterdam has a palace at Dam and is the official capital but is administered from The Hague.

Once the Empire was administratively split into East and West, the center of administration in the West was Ravenna.

[sealion]

Just a few points
Vyzantio=Byzantium = town-capital build by king Vyzantas at a place with seven hills (just like Rome - The reason for building new Rome there)

Constantinople= Constantinou polis (Greek) = the city of Constantine, those times was used to said '' lets go to the city'' or Greek “is tin pole” that’s how the a days name came from.

Emperor Constantine left Rome, after winning the battle against idolaters outside Rome, just in case his opponents (emanating from chronic idolatering Rome) decide to begin new conflict in order to stop Christianity.

Emperor Constantine imposed the Freedom of religions

[antiochos]

Hello from Hellas

[maximusslade]

Byzantium will always hold a special place in my heart :)

[Kansas Bear]

I have no special affection for either. As a historian, I evaluate the evidence and follow where it takes me, without interference or prejudice from governments hostile to the subject being researched!

[Oscar]

Byzantium will always hold a special place in my heart :)

Me too:), with the catholic church, Byzantium is the one who kept and transmitted the classic, greco-roman heritage on which our modern societies are built. Its the indispensable link between antiquity and the renaissance who managed to survive through the whole Middle Ages.

[maximusslade]

LOL dan Kansas... but a buzzkill you must be at parties LOL ButI understand what you mean.

[Kansas Bear]

LOL dan Kansas... but a buzzkill you must be at parties LOL ButI understand what you mean.

I don't discuss history at parties.