Any Belgians on board?

[Ironduke]

I'm writing a 10-15 page paper advocating the partition of Belgium with each side acceding to the Netherlands and France, with Brussels and an EU DC.

[Tarek Morgen]

small suggestion, in the east of belgium is a German-speaking minority, about 100.000. How about let them join Germany, after a Plebiscite? (after you current plan they would end up in France


(they are the blue ones)

[Oscar]

I'm writing a 10-15 page paper advocating the partition of Belgium with each side acceding to the Netherlands and France, with Brussels and an EU DC.

Well, I'm French but last time I went to Brussels people didn't want to pull the plug for their country!!

Maybe Belgium was some kind of artificial state at the beginning but the common history of the francophone/neerlandophone "Belgians"(or Flemish before) dates back from the Renaissance when they chose to keep catholicism as their religion and stay loyal to their king Philip of Spain.

After Kosovo Belgium? then the Basque country? Scotland? transylvania? etc...we're going nowhere..

[Oscar]

small suggestion, in the east of belgium is a German-speaking minority, about 100.000. How about let them join Germany, after a Plebiscite? (after you current plan they would end up in France


(they are the blue ones)

Quite ironically they are the most fervent supporters of the Belgian monarchy:)

[Ironduke]

Well, I'm French but last time I went to Brussels people didn't want to pull the plug for their country!!

Maybe Belgium was some kind of artificial state at the beginning but the common history of the francophone/neerlandophone "Belgians"(or Flemish before) dates back from the Renaissance when they chose to keep catholicism as their religion and stay loyal to their king Philip of Spain.

After Kosovo Belgium? then the Basque country? Scotland? transylvania? etc...we're going nowhere..

The premise of my paper is going to be that linguistic divisions are a source of paralyzing political instability, and a partition would end this.

[bolo121]

The premise of my paper is going to be that linguistic divisions are a source of paralyzing political instability, and a partition would end this.

Just on a side note (all i know of belgium is i like their beer), the very existence of my country sort of invalidates the premise of your paper.

[Ironduke]

Just on a side note (all i know of belgium is i like their beer), the very existence of my country sort of invalidates the premise of your paper.

Belgium is a bi-national state whose Dutch and French nationalities border the Dutch and French nation-states. Most of the political disputes in the country derive from the linguistic split. The two communities have to a large extent diverged ideologically as well, with the Flemish favoring the Anglo-Saxon economic model, and the Walloons favoring a "continental" social democratic system.

All political parties in Belgium are formed on the basis of nationality as well. All parties are either Flemish or Walloon, neither are both.

[bolo121]

Belgium is a bi-national state whose Dutch and French nationalities border the Dutch and French nation-states. Most of the political disputes in the country derive from the linguistic split. The two communities have to a large extent diverged ideologically as well, with the Flemish favoring the Anglo-Saxon economic model, and the Walloons favoring a "continental" social democratic system.

All political parties in Belgium are formed on the basis of nationality as well. All parties are either Flemish or Walloon, neither are both.

Ive just spent some time reading articles from the economist on this.
Amazing!
Who would have thought that a developed western european nation would be on the brink of partition.
I would say dont do it, europe has enough microstates as it is and both sides it seems would like to hang on to Brussels.

[Tarek Morgen]

I would say dont do it, europe has enough microstates as it is and both sides it seems would like to hang on to Brussels.

That would not really be an isuee as (after Irondukes proposal), there would not be 2 new microstates, but insteat one small country less, while the France and the Netherlands would become bigger.

[bolo121]

Yes if they agree to take the microstates and if the microstates themselves acquiesce, it might work. But from the articles it seemed that there was a lot of disagreement over everything including who got Brussels.

[BD1]

Ironduke , try contacting Entropy , he lives on Ghent

[crooks]

I'm writing a 10-15 page paper advocating the partition of Belgium with each side acceding to the Netherlands and France, with Brussels and an EU DC.

Well you could use several arguments:

Economic

From a Flemish point of view Wallonia is a dead weight - it used to be the other way around, when Wallonia was one of the world's major industrial giants (primarily in steel)......however since 'de-industrialisation' to cheaper locations Wallonia has suffered chronic unemployment, economic malaise and a general lack of entrepenuership.

Flanders, formerly an agriconomy has excelled in the modern era, specialising in services and light industry - Flanders quite literally pays Wallonia to exist, about 6% of GNP is 'transferred' to Wallonia in subsidies, something I'd imagine the average Fleming would like to end.

Political

As stated, the two have differing views on how to run an economy but also worth noting is the divergence in political views - Walloons, quite likely due to the 'subsidy culture', vote heavily for the Socialist party, traditionally this party is dominant in Wallonia, both at a regional and federal level.

Flemings are more centre-right, the largest party in Flanders is the CD een V, a Christian Democratic party, followed by far right VB (Vlaams Belang), the Socialists have only a fairly token following , same for the Greens.

This means not only are they sending two groups of politicians who speak different language to govern, they're also sending two groups of politicians who disagree with each other at even the most basic policy level.

Geopolitical

Both linguistic groups share borders with larger nations that use a common language with them - you could argue that Belgium is such a pointless concept as a nation, due to the fact that these large neighbours will always exert more empathy to each group than they're fellow countrymen - Who does a Fleming from Antwerp feel closer related to, a Dutchman in Noord Brabant or a French speaking compatriot in Brussels?

I'm sure there are more but I can't think of any right now !

[crooks]

That would not really be an isuee as (after Irondukes proposal), there would not be 2 new microstates, but insteat one small country less, while the France and the Netherlands would become bigger.

I don't think the Flemings would want to join the Netherlands - they're two seperate countries, most Flemings that favour breakup seem to want outright indepedence for Flanders, not a 're-united Kingdom'.

The Walloons would run to join France faster than a racedog after a rabbit .

[cesm]

I don't think the Flemings would want to join the Netherlands - they're two seperate countries, most Flemings that favour breakup seem to want outright indepedence for Flanders, not a 're-united Kingdom'.

The Walloons would run to join France faster than a racedog after a rabbit .

Are you sure ?
The pro-France unification party never made high scores in the belgian polls, and I don't know if France would agree. The Walloons may have a huge public debt, after a split.
I've read that Netherlands don't really want to unite with the Flemish separatists.
And I don't know what Germans think about this mess.

Talking about political views, I wonder if the Flemish parties are still "more centre-right". That smells a litte more... black. Not the skin, the uniform, if you see what I mean... UN and UE make more and more critics about the Flemish little anti-foreign low knocks. And for the Flemish the word "foreign" includes the french-speaking (or german-speaking) Belgians.
I wonder how people living in America would react if someone try to vote the same laws in the USA (flemish becoming english and french becoming spanish, for example). Some laws remind me the French bad and outdated policy against the minorities : "spitting and breton-speaking forbidden".

Terrible. I fear how this belgian joke will end.

[crooks]

Are you sure ?
The pro-France unification party never made high scores in the belgian polls, and I don't know if France would agree. The Walloons may have a huge public debt, after a split.
I've read that Netherlands don't really want to unite with the Flemish separatists.
And I don't know what Germans think about this mess.

Oh make no mistake, the Walloons would MUCH prefer for Belgium to continue as per today.

But If Wallonia was faced with indepedence or unify with France (assuming Flanders votes heavily to seceede), the Walloons would pick unification VERY fast - the reason they fight Flanders so hard on the issue is because Flanders is a viable country, that can walk away....Wallonia isn't and can't.

They simply can't finance theie debt, it's unification or be Western Europe's worst failed state.

As for what France has to say, it's hard to tell - I'd imagine the debt (small for France in absolute terms) would be outweighted by a new territory and 3 million citizens who speak French.

The Netherlands has publicly expressed no interest in unification with Flanders - privately I'd imagine many would say 'why not?', as from a Dutch point of view it would be a chance to enlarge the Netherlands and gain more land (controlling both sides of the Antwerp-Rotterdam sea trade would be immensley tempting).

Talking about political views, I wonder if the Flemish parties are still "more centre-right". That smells a litte more... black. Not the skin, the uniform, if you see what I mean... UN and UE make more and more critics about the Flemish little anti-foreign low knocks. And for the Flemish the word "foreign" includes the french-speaking (or german-speaking) Belgians.
I wonder how people living in America would react if someone try to vote the same laws in the USA (flemish becoming english and french becoming spanish, for example). Some laws remind me the French bad and outdated policy against the minorities : "spitting and breton-speaking forbidden".

I was under the impression the Flemish just want to keep Flanders Dutch - French speakers, not happy living in 'la grande smog' of Brussels, are moving to traditional Dutch-speaking suburbs, located in Flanders, and hoping for bilingualism .

I can see where they're coming from, they shouldn't have to appease Francophones, especially after the appalling way the French used to treat Flemish.

Terrible. I fear how this belgian joke will end.

Hard to know - paritition might solve many of the problems though.