Payback time: ISI's terrorists turn against Pak

[Yusuf]

Payback time: ISI's terrorists turn against Pak

New York: Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence has lost control of some of the networks of militants it has nurtured since the 1980s and is now suffering the violent backlash of that policy, The New York Times reported on Tuesday.

Former senior intelligence officials and other officials close to the agency have admitted to the US daily that the ISI has also supported militants in Kashmir although at the behest of its political masters, confirming what New Delhi believed all along and repeatedly complained about to Islamabad in vain.

Despite the crackdown on all militants ordered by President Pervez Musharraf, some officials in the government and the ISI thought the militants should be held in reserve, as insurance against the day when US and NATO forces abandoned the region and Pakistan might again need them as a lever against India, the daily writes in a detailed full-page report.

As the army has moved against them, the militants have joined hands with other extremist groups to battle Pakistani security forces and carried out a record number of suicide attacks last year, including some aimed directly at army and intelligence units as well as prominent political figures, possibly even Benazir Bhutto, the paper says.

The growing strength of Pakistani militants, many of whom now back al-Qaeda's global jihad, presents a grave threat to Pakistan's security as well as NATO efforts to push back the Taliban in Afghanistan, forcing US officials to consider covert operations in the lawless border areas in the northwest.

One disclosure about the ISI is bound to raise fears among opposition parties of rigging of polls scheduled next month.

The newspaper’s sources acknowledged that the ISI manipulated the country's last national election in 2002, and offered to drop corruption cases against candidates who would back President Musharraf. He has, however, ordered the agency to ensure that the coming elections were free and fair, says the newspaper.

After September 11, 2001, though Musharraf publicly allied Pakistan with the Bush administration, the ISI could not rein in the militants it had nurtured as a proxy force to exert pressure on India and Afghanistan.

After the agency unleashed hardline Islamist beliefs, it struggled to stop the ideology from spreading. Worse, dozens of ISI officers had come to sympathise with the militants cause and had to be expelled from the agency, the Times reports, quoting former Pakistani officials.

"We could not control them," said a former senior intelligence official. "We indoctrinated them and told them, 'You will go to heaven.' You cannot turn it around so suddenly.


The country is a mess.

[Agnostic Muslim]

The country is a mess.

FATA is a mess. Life in the rest of Pakistan is going on as ususal despite the minor hiccups - but that will hardly satisfy you given the tenor of your posts.

To quote Salim (ray):

"If it helps people to find happiness in decrying some other, then let it be so.

Spread love and happiness."

[maqsad]

If the ISI lost control of "some of the networks of militants" then who has control of these militants now? RAW? CIA? A new KHAD? Mossad? Supposedly some little birdy whispered this secret into the ear of the guy at NYTimes but we have no names or examples of who these loose cannons are and more importantly who is financing them and assisting them now.

[Yusuf]

FATA is a mess. Life in the rest of Pakistan is going on as ususal despite the minor hiccups - but that will hardly satisfy you given the tenor of your posts.

To quote Salim (ray):

"If it helps people to find happiness in decrying some other, then let it be so.

Spread love and happiness."

Nothing against the people of Pakistan but only the policies of successive governments which has survived on anti India rhetoric.
Coming back to the thread as i write this there is news that militants have taken over a military fort.
People in India want a stable and friendly Pakistan but your successive governments out of hatred for India nurtured terrorists who have now become your Frankenstein.
Pakistani people will have to rise both to your tyrannical government and the terrorists alike.
And you are mistaken. I dont find happiness in the misery of the people of Pakistan. I am only against as i said before the Pak army led government, ISI and its backed terrorists. What happens in Pakistan has a direct bearing on the security of India. So we can only hope and pray that things get sorted out there quickly

[Yusuf]

If the ISI lost control of "some of the networks of militants" then who has control of these militants now? RAW? CIA? A new KHAD? Mossad? Supposedly some little birdy whispered this secret into the ear of the guy at NYTimes but we have no names or examples of who these loose cannons are and more importantly who is financing them and assisting them now.

Some would claim that the line between the ISI and the militants has blurred. Its common knowledge that a large number of people in ISI are sympathetic to the militants. Besides the terrorists have turned against the government of Pakistan led by Mr Musharraff.
Its all too confusing as to who is leading who. So many factions have come out. Even Mr Musharraff would find it difficult to say if he is in control of the country.All this makes the scenario very scary

[Agnostic Muslim]

Nothing against the people of Pakistan but only the policies of successive governments which has survived on anti India rhetoric.
Coming back to the thread as i write this there is news that militants have taken over a military fort.
People in India want a stable and friendly Pakistan but your successive governments out of hatred for India nurtured terrorists who have now become your Frankenstein.
Pakistani people will have to rise both to your tyrannical government and the terrorists alike.
And you are mistaken. I dont find happiness in the misery of the people of Pakistan. I am only against as i said before the Pak army led government, ISI and its backed terrorists. What happens in Pakistan has a direct bearing on the security of India. So we can only hope and pray that things get sorted out there quickly

If you think that Pakistan survived simply on anti-India rhetoric than you are quite mistaken, and have no understanding of Pakistanis. While I think the conflict between the two states has served to retard development, the Pakistani identity itself has more complex factors in play, and is still a work in progress - as it should be for any society or nation.

You also obfuscate the issue - the threat to Pakistan is primarily from AQ and certain taliban groups (not all) who ascribe to AQ's ideology. Pakistan's support for the Taliban was in its own turn driven by a desire to protect its interests and obtain stability in Afghanistan, not for "supporting terrorists" as you claim. And considering that the bastion of Democracy, the US, itself engaged in less than savory acts to protect US interests, as did the Russians, Chinese etc. - Pakistan can hardly be singled out for criticism for attempting to do the same.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Some would claim that the line between the ISI and the militants has blurred. Its common knowledge that a large number of people in ISI are sympathetic to the militants. Besides the terrorists have turned against the government of Pakistan led by Mr Musharraff.
Its all too confusing as to who is leading who. So many factions have come out. Even Mr Musharraff would find it difficult to say if he is in control of the country.All this makes the scenario very scary

Actually its not common knowledge at all - more of an incorrect perception.

If you were to read the report in its entirety you would find that the authors sources have admitted that at least 3 major purges of staff loyal to the Taliban have taken place. The last director of the ISI was Kiyani, who is considered pro_western and moderate. It is highly doubtful that he did not continue that policy. The current director is also a Musharraf loyalist, so continuity in that policy is to be expected in the near future as well.

Could there be rogue agents that continue to collaborate with the anti-state Taliban factions, of course. Not everyone is going to simply raise their hand and admit their support. The sort of extensive relationship and networks the ISI built with the Taliban will take time to completely eradicate.

The biggest sign that the ISI is primarily anti-Taliban is unfortunately from the attacks on ISI personnel and the military. I doubt that an agency that was so pro-Taliban would be facing so many attacks from the people it was largely supporting.

The situation is not confusing if you follow the events. The battle lines are clearly drawn - the problem is best expressed (IMO) by this post by a member (JK) on defence.pk:

Well I was recently visited by a family member who is serving as a Major in a field artillary regiment who explained the situation to me.

The reason that there is no huge all out operation is that the army wishes to prevent civilian casualties.
From a Pathans perspective if a family member is killed by someone else they are bound by honor to avenge that death. It makes sense for the army to exercise caution or there would be alot of pissed of people.

The Nato forces in Afghanistan can pack up and leave when they are done and Pakistan cannot as this is on home turf yet another reason to exercise caution.

Furthermore most of the foreign miscreants who are arrested are refused back to their home countries so Pakistan has to deal with them.

I hope that soon the army and the paramilitaries deployed can end things once and for all but as you can see the situation is quite complicated.

[Yusuf]

I agree with the last line that the situation is quite complicated. Its also confusing out there. There is no resolution in sight. Worse no one knows how to bring about a resolution.
There are so many who have now subscribed to the Jihadi ideology and so many groups you dont know who to deal with.
If one day OBL is caught and for some reason denounces terrrorism, i think it will hardly make a difference as there are so many groups.

Agnostic Muslim, since you have more understanding of the situation than most of us, what do you think can be done? Or what are the people of Pakistan trying to do about it

[maqsad]

Some would claim that the line between the ISI and the militants has blurred. Its common knowledge that a large number of people in ISI are sympathetic to the militants. Besides the terrorists have turned against the government of Pakistan led by Mr Musharraff.
Its all too confusing as to who is leading who. So many factions have come out. Even Mr Musharraff would find it difficult to say if he is in control of the country.All this makes the scenario very scary

And some would also claim that the line between RAW/CIA and the militants has come into better focus.

It is clear that militants are attacking the police, army and institutions of pakistan as well as attacking chinese to undermine Chinese and Pakistani relations. The ensuing chaos is in the interests of India, the US and Afghanistan because it weakens the central structures that hold Pakistan together as well as undermine its relationship with its best strategic ally, China.

At the same time we have Indians and Americans calling for seizure of Pakistani nukes. It is plain obvious that there is an enourmous amount of people in the India and US camps who just want to grab pakistani nukes out of pakistan. Its quite reasonable to suspect that either the CIA or RAW or both could be backing the destabalization in Pakistan right now.

[Yusuf]

And some would also claim that the line between RAW/CIA and the militants has come into better focus.

It is clear that militants are attacking the police, army and institutions of pakistan as well as attacking chinese to undermine Chinese and Pakistani relations. The ensuing chaos is in the interests of India, the US and Afghanistan because it weakens the central structures that hold Pakistan together as well as undermine its relationship with its best strategic ally, China.

At the same time we have Indians and Americans calling for seizure of Pakistani nukes. It is plain obvious that there is an enourmous amount of people in the India and US camps who just want to grab pakistani nukes out of pakistan. Its quite reasonable to suspect that either the CIA or RAW or both could be backing the destabalization in Pakistan right now.

Quite on the contrary India wants a stable Pakistan minus all the terrorists. Peaceful co existence is in the interest of both India and Pakistan. Sadly it hasnt happened so far. The ISI has and still is trying to destabilize India as evident from several instances over the years. Obviously Pakistan denies it. But there is ample proof of their complicity. But that is another matter.

Now the militants the Pakistanis supported have turned against them. No one is there to control them. Mr Musharraff's credibility in reigning them in is also under cloud. Either he is supporting them in the sly or has no control over them. That would make him useless either way. He slapped emergency under the excuse of extremism and then lifted it. Has the extremism come down in Pakistan? I dont think so. Mrs Bhutto was assassinated and bomb blasts have become common.
Since you have brought the nukes into picture, I would say its dangerous for the world as a whole if they fall into the hands of the extremists.Its dangerous for Pakistan itself if that happens.

[maqsad]

Quite on the contrary India wants a stable Pakistan minus all the terrorists. Peaceful co existence is in the interest of both India and Pakistan. Sadly it hasnt happened so far.

I am well aware of the official position of the Indian govt regarding the sovereignty of Pakistan. India is one of the few countries that has officially recognized Pakistan's right to arm itself with nuclear weapons. However, if you read what I said carefully I wrote "Indians and Americans" meaning certain people within both countries which includes the Indian and American media, as well as their respective secret services. Who these people are and why they have such hostile intentions towards Pakistan is another issue altogether.

The ISI has and still is trying to destabilize India as evident from several instances over the years. Obviously Pakistan denies it. But there is ample proof of their complicity. But that is another matter.

There are a dozen different insurgencies going on in India, I doubt Pakistan is responsible for ALL of them, especially the tamil separatist movement and it is a well known fact that Benazir Bhutto killed the Khalistan movement by turning the ISI's support into a sting operation against the Sikh separatist movement. I would hardly call that destabilizing. This just leaves Kashmir, that is yet another complex matter. Assuming that there is still some sort of support going through the ISI or some other Pakistani channel then that is all the more reason to lend credence to a tit for tat response from RAW to back terrorist attacks in Pakistan, to work with the CIA and their newfound Afghan separatists to destabilize Pakistan through terrorist attacks.

Now the militants the Pakistanis supported have turned against them. No one is there to control them. Mr Musharraff's credibility in reigning them in is also under cloud. Either he is supporting them in the sly or has no control over them. That would make him useless either way.

How do you know no one is there to control them? If someone is a militant and they want to carve out their own little emirate then they would NEVER turn assistance down from any foreign power who also shares a desire for the destruction of a common foe. Its just common sense that both RAW and the CIA would seek contact and cooperation with any militant group opposed to the state of Pakistan.

He slapped emergency under the excuse of extremism and then lifted it. Has the extremism come down in Pakistan? I dont think so. Mrs Bhutto was assassinated and bomb blasts have become common.

The reason mushy slapped emergency rule was to get rid of political dissenters who were waging a successful propaganda war against him. And I doubt it was a dictatorial decision by mushy himself, I am sure the top dogs in the military backed him 100%. Others may have backed him too, I don't know. As far as bomb blast becoming common I don't see how you can link that to mushy. It is not in the interests of mushy or the army or the civilian establishment to have bombs blasting everywhere. It is in the interests of foreigners who want the state of Pakistan to become weak, so its quite conceivable that RAW or the CIA/MI6 have found disgruntled mullah brainwashed zombies to carry out these attacks.

If the identities of these blown up suiciders were made public along with background dossiers of their entire lives then we might know who is behind all this but you and others are just pushing the opinion that because the ISI grew mullahs in their back yard therefore it must be homegrown mullahs from an ISI factory doing all this. No, not necessarily.

Since you have brought the nukes into picture, I would say its dangerous for the world as a whole if they fall into the hands of the extremists.Its dangerous for Pakistan itself if that happens.

It is also dangerous for Pakistan itself itself if the CIA and/or RAW back "extremist" zombies who destabilize Pakistan enough so that coupled with a carefully orchestrated mass media campaign the Delta Force can invade Pakistan and seize all the nukes based on a crisis created specifically for that purpose. I didn't think you could make yourself mention that so thought I would add it myself. :)

[Yusuf]

There are a dozen different insurgencies going on in India, I doubt Pakistan is responsible for ALL of them, especially the tamil separatist movement
This just leaves Kashmir, that is yet another complex matter. Assuming that there is still some sort of support going through the ISI or some other Pakistani channel then that is all the more reason to lend credence to a tit for tat response from RAW to back terrorist attacks in Pakistan, to work with the CIA and their newfound Afghan separatists to destabilize Pakistan through terrorist attacks.

The ISI has developed good bases all over.It has operations through Nepal and Bangladesh. Just to remind you that we DONT have a tamil separatist movement. Its in Srilanka led by the LTTE. wonder if the ISI has links with them.

[Agnostic Muslim]

The ISI has and still is trying to destabilize India as evident from several instances over the years. Obviously Pakistan denies it. But there is ample proof of their complicity. But that is another matter.

The ISI has developed good bases all over.It has operations through Nepal and Bangladesh.

I imagine you are referring to the various terrorist acts in India, but to suggest that the ISI has control over the various groups committing them is laughable at this point, because they don't even have enough control to stop them from bombing their own personnel. The only evidence I have seen on the "ISI's guilt" has been Indian SF' intel or statements - hardly unbiased sources. Especially considering that the ISI is typically blamed hours after any incident occurs (the Indians have Investigative superpowers apparently). If that is the route you want to go, then Pakistani intel and law enforcement has also implicated Indian agencies in the terrorism in Baluchistan and some incidents in the rest of Pakistan.

No doubt there was support for various groups fighting in Kashmir, as there was for the taliban, but the aims of neither were to start bombing train stations and marketplaces, and massacring innocent civilians. The monster has gone out of control - that eventuality unfortuanately was not considered.

[Yusuf]

No doubt there was support for various groups fighting in Kashmir, as there was for the taliban, but the aims of neither were to start bombing train stations and marketplaces, and massacring innocent civilians. The monster has gone out of control - that eventuality unfortuanately was not considered.

Precisely what the thread is about isnt it? that these extremists have gone out of control. And it is of real concern to everyone Indo Pak relations aside. It has a worldwide implication.

[Agnostic Muslim]

Just to remind you that we DONT have a tamil separatist movement. Its in Srilanka led by the LTTE. wonder if the ISI has links with them.

No evidence of links with the LTTE - but I do know that Pakistani Military cooperation with the Sri Lankan government is at an all time high. Small arms, bombs, possibly tanks etc.

In fact the cooperation is to the extent that is has begun to rankle the Indian Govt. - with protest statements being made.

Precisely what the thread is about isnt it? that these extremists have gone out of control. And it is of real concern to everyone Indo Pak relations aside. It has a worldwide implication.

No argument over the extremists going out of control - just about the allegations of the ISI deliberately sponsoring terrorist acts.