Schools suck, dropouts tell us why

[FibrillatorD]

"Our Survey, which again we emphasize may not in all cases mirror national statistics, paints a picture of the American high school dropout that may surprise people:

*88 percent had passing grades, with 62 percenty have "C's and above";
*58 percent dropped out with just two years or less to complete high school;
*66 percent would have worked harder if expectations were higher;
*70 percent were confident they could have graduated from high school;
*81 percent recognized that graduating from high school was vital to their success;
*74 percent would have stayed in school if they had to do it all over again;
*51 percent accepted personal responsibility for not graduating and an additional 26 percent shared the responsibility between themselves and their school, leaving very few who blamed the schools alone; and
*nearly all of the students had thoughtful ideas about what their schools could have done to keep them from dropping out and woul dcounsel students who are thinking of dropping out not to do so"

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/nr/do...c3-06final.pdf

Its tempting to say the egg came before the chicken about dropouts and their problems, especially considering all the other negative correlations with educational attainment: unemployment, income, crime, obesity, divorce rate...

The education system is only a tool to sift out the bad ones, when many of the bad ones drop out because there is no inherent value to getting an education anymore - or very little. They simply choose not to waste their time.

Education is no investment, because it pays no dividends except to open doors to more worthless education. Learning per school-hour is so low, and what learning occurs is so dumbed-down and irrelevant, that even getting high or roaming around, playing rock and roll is much more satisfying. Everything missed in class can be recovered in a fraction of the time ON THE INTERNET! Thus, bail, and bail early.

The Internet makes the classroom obsolete.

Burn the books! Invest in bandwidth. Subsidize computers for students, and subscribe them to lexus nexus and other libraries. And find a way to challenge them from there. There is a niche for everyone on the Internet.

[dalem]

I don't know what the right answer is but I know I never did super well in a classical classroom environment.

A buddy of mine has a son who is super-energetic and was causing a lot of problems in his kindergarten/school. They eventually put him into a (I think charter) school with an odd and extremely weird style. After having it explained to me briefly by an adult friend who observed, I could comfortably say that I HATED the details of what I heard - sounded like a bunch of hippie crap.

BUT I really really liked the fact that it's there. And if it teaches the "three Rs" to the kid, what the heck do I care about style?

More choice is definitely part of the answer.

-dale

[Dwarven Pirate]

I think using the word classical to describe a classroom environment (meaning I think what we have had in the west throughout most of the 20th century up to today, with rigid schedules and codes of behavior and forced socialization, and rote teaching stressing memorization) is a misnomer. Classical education is more along the lines of charter and montesori schooling, I think, where the focus is on encouragment of the individuals interests and on developing critical thinking skills. But its just semantics, anyway.

I think all three of my teaching relatives wish they were given much greater leeway to adapt the curriculum to the child, instead of forcing the child to adapt to the curriculum. One teaches grade school, one works with messed-up kids (development problems) and the other is a principal of a middle or high school. It's educational to hear them rag on the school, school board, fellow teachers and even their students when they get together. The one comment I think I've heard most often from them is "that kid doesn't need to know this stuff".

Myself, I dropped out of high school my senior year. Of course, I really dropped out a couple years earlier, I just didnt stop showing up until then. After a year of work, I decided to go to college. Finished the missing courses in community college and went to university. Dropped out again after a year. Basically it was all a waste of time for me. The only time I regret it is when I get turned down for a job because I dont have a degree. There is no blame to be assigned.

I do think the 81 percent are wrongly informed when they say that a high school degree is vital to their success. In my experience, no one cares about that.

[Not sure what I wanted to say here lol. I think it wasnt what came out. Would I have done better with a bachelor's degree? :P ]

[gunnut]

I never did well in college. I shudder to think I might have to go back for some more classes.

[bonehead]

As individuals we all learn differently. Most do well/excel in the classic school room environment, while others must travel down a different road for education. I suffered greatly in the classical environment and it was not until I was half way through college when I found a way to study that enabled me to learn best.
The school system now has to incorporate kids of all levels and maturity in an ever increasing classroom size. The result is that the teacher must paint a broad stripe of learning materials that cover MOST of the students. The teacher does not have enough time to spend on each kid as much of the time is wasted dealing with kids who are disruptive or are lagging behind in the current subject matter. The end result is that above average students get bored as they wait for their less mature/ academically struggling classmates to catch up, and the below average kids do not get the one-on-one attention they need to learn. To further compound the problem, most parents feel they have absolutely no role in the education of their own kids. Parental involvement is a key to the educational success of our children.

[leib10]

I found myself hating high school and never really adapted to its dumbed-down style. College is a lot more to my liking.

[glyn]

Parental involvement is a key to the educational success of our children.

I wholeheartedly agree, especially if they are capable of doing so.

[texacali]

A teacher in the US today seemingly needs the skills of a ringmaster in controlling the classroom, a bureaucrat in dealing with the school board, the insights of a family counselor for the parents, and the patience of Job to see the results. If we, the parents and grandparents of these children, do not support these dedicated educators, how can we expect to raise a generation that will carry on our culture and values? We teach by example, as we do so shall our children.

[glyn]

A teacher in the US today seemingly needs the skills of a ringmaster in controlling the classroom, a bureaucrat in dealing with the school board, the insights of a family counselor for the parents, and the patience of Job to see the results. If we, the parents and grandparents of these children, do not support these dedicated educators, how can we expect to raise a generation that will carry on our culture and values? We teach by example, as we do so shall our children.

A teacher always used to be looked up to, an esteemed member of society. Something changed that perception, but I don't know what. I suspect is is the absence of discipline at home particularly in one-parent families but there are many other contributary factors.

[McFire]

I actually thought college was easier than high school, probably because I didn't have to spend every day doing the same routine. I liked having certain classes only two or three days a week. It seemed to make the material less boring (to me anyway!). I only have an Associates Degree, since I still don't know what I want to do for a major. I have a lot of hours from a hodge podge of schools all over the country. I just retired after a twenty year career in the USAF as a firefighter, but now I want a new career trying something different. It's a tough choice with so much ot there. I'm a jack of all trades, master of none. ;)

[bonehead]

Teachers used to have power in their own classroom similar to a judge in court. Today teachers are only given the power to fail. They have no respect from the class and no support from parents or administration. This does not bode well for future generations.

[texacali]

This is the era of no-fault. Any critical analysis of a result based on facts is dismissed as hindsight or monday morning quarterbacking. If we don't learn from the past our future will contain the same mistakes. Unruly students should be expelled or jailed as the circumstances warrant. It has not been proven productive to allow them a two week or one month time out from regular classes and expect that they return with a new attitude. Education is a privilege for most of the world's children, not an entitlement to a social party for spoiled sub-adults.

[Dwarven Pirate]

Most do well/excel in the classic school room environment, while others must travel down a different road for education.

I dont think this is demonstrable (or correct, actually). We can say this only because this is how our system is structured and this is what we test for. Hence, most students 'pass'. That isnt to say that a majority wouldn't actually do better in another format, only that most students are able to adapt to the environment generally.

In fact, declining measures of learning success I think tends to show that the system is somehow failing. It's hard for an individual to point to differences in the school system, simply because he has only lived it one way. Teachers need to be the primary determinants of what works in the ever-changing culture of society.

Parental influence, I think, has little if any actual bearing on how well a student learns in a certain setting. I would say that, beyond direct tutoring of material, a parent can only influence the motivation and discipline of the student.

I wonder if our children are becoming more individualistic these days, with the amount of choices available to a person in most any facet of their life increasing greatly over the years, and if true if this is any factor in our failures of structured learning - square pegs, round holes...

[bonehead]

The instant gratification todays youth are hooked on is one of the problems. Few really can make the connection of hard work today vastly increases the odds of getting a better reward in the future. I do not know about other people, but my dads interest in my education and the threat of having his boot up my arse was a fantastic motivator during my youth. Sometimes motivation is all that is needed to learn. When I was younger, I had to work harder than my classmates in the classical setting to attain the same results. If I was not "motivated" my grades would have been far worse. Now compare that to a student whose parents do not care if the kid goes to school at all, let alone gets good grades. If the student really can't function in the classical setting, a good parent will make the effort to get his kid in a classroom that works.

Teachers should be the primary determinants, but they are far from it. They are being told what to teach, and when to teach, from the know nothings in the administration and from the government. The end result is dummying up the entire class so little Jimmy does not get left behind. Then there are all the standardized tests. Great for people who want useless data saying Jimmy can't read, but that time would be better spent teaching Jimmy to read.

[Ironduke]

The end result is dummying up the entire class so little Jimmy does not get left behind.

The German education system has different types of high schools that is supposed to separate students according to their abilities and aptitude after completing elementary school. It's not perfect, and there are many instances in which students are forced to attend a type of high school which has less promising career prospects upon graduation.

I think though that elements of it should be incorporated into the American secondary education system.

Types of schools:

• Hauptschule - prepares students for low-level employment (unskilled/semi-skilled)
• Realschule - prepares students for vocational careers, skilled labor
• Gymnasium - prepares students for university education

And of course there's the Gesamtschule, which is the same as an average American high school.

I think that the American education system could be reformed somewhat along those lines, create more specialized high schools that ease entry into careers students have the aptitude/desire to work in. Not sure about the Hauptschule, as it's basically a school of last resort for those who are deemed to be failures, pretty much.

The adoption of the Realschule and Gymnasium could deliver a far more intensive and relevant individually-catered education, better prepare students for post-secondary training/education, and even cut back on the need for so many years of it. I think in Germany the equivalent to a bachelor's degree takes 2.5 to 3 years to complete because of the intensive preparation of the Gymnasium.

One of the problems I see with the American education system is the huge requirement for general education... I have 118 college credits and will probably have about 140-145 by graduation, yet less than 30% will be within my field of study. Ditto for other BA students... a lot of these general requirements could be nipped in the bud much earlier, or even be thrown out altogether.