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  • Will Russia create the world's second largest surface navy?

    Will Russia create the world's second largest surface navy?


    15:05 | 13/ 11/ 2007



    MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti political commentator Andrei Kislyakov) - The year 2007 can safely be described as Russia's year of combat aviation.

    Both in July at Le Bourget in France and in August at Zhukovsky outside Moscow, thousands of spectators held their breath as they watched stunts performed by MiG and Su planes equipped with vectored-thrust engines.

    It was a sight to be proud of. The planes featured were all land-based, although it is aircraft carrier aviation that makes up the effective core of the present-day air forces around the world.

    Russia has planes that can be used on carriers. For example, the MiG, or rather the MiG-29 KUB (the acronym stands for aircraft carrier combat training). But they are exported to India under a contract to equip their future aircraft carriers.

    Russia cannot be said to be blind to the role of aircraft carriers or the navy in modern warfare. In today's unpredictable world, even the mere appearance of a formidable ship featuring three service components sailing off a trouble spot is capable of producing a sobering effect on a potential aggressor.

    It was therefore not surprising that in the middle of the year Admiral Vladimir Masorin, commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, announced plans to reform the country's naval forces and build a blue-water navy with the world's second largest fleet of aircraft carriers.

    Or rather, in the next 20 years, Russia aims to create six aircraft carrier strike groups, giving it the world's second largest surface navy after the United States.

    An aircraft carrier looks impressive, but needs a strong escort. Current world practice, where the U.S. is the trend-setter, dictates their operation within strike groups.

    Such a group, aside from the multi-role giant, also contains up to six combat escort vessels, including one or two GM cruisers, one GM destroyer, and two or three anti-submarine destroyers or frigates.

    The American standards are, of course, not necessarily a guide for Russia, but so far there has been no evidence that the make-up of their strike groups needs to be changed.

    Thus, six aircraft carrier strike groups are to be built in 20 years' time, including all the components and sparing no expense.

    One thing, however, immediately comes to the mind, which concerns the organizational philosophy. Not long ago, in early 2004, Russia's Defense Ministry prepared a blueprint for building up the Navy until 2040-2050. The main planks of the blueprint were giving up the "ocean" aspect of protecting the country's interests and instead focusing on small-class vessels operating within a 500-km zone of territorial waters.

    "We are now abandoning the large-class ships we have or inherited from the Soviet era, and are moving to multi-purpose vessels," said Admiral of the Fleet Vladimir Kuroyedov, the then commander-in-chief of the Navy.

    According to him, "Russia will have its own frigates and corvettes unmatched by anything else in the world."

    He said, "aircraft carriers belong to the next decade, and to speak of them now is a bit too soon." But, he said, Russia's only aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov" would remain. No one, he said, was going to write it off or sell it. "We have not even given that any thought," Kuroyedov said.

    The story of the ill-fated "Kuznetsov" will be taken up later, but now it is worth examining the two programs defining the future of the Russian navy that only took two years to draw up.

    Conceptually, they are worlds apart. What makes them related is pointless bravado statements like "unmatched by anything else" or the "second largest."

    Does Russia have grounds for planning the construction of so many carriers in the next twenty years? Let's calculate the prospects.

    Russian shipyards will have to launch one aircraft carrier every three years and four months if the plan is to be fully completed.

    Compare this with what the Americans did in 22 years from 1981 to 2003: they built six aircraft carriers during that time. The last one, "The Ronald Reagan", although completed with a fantastic speed in about 30 months and hitting the water in mid-2003, did not join the active fleet until January of last year. Its running and other trials took almost three years.

    In other words, it took the Pentagon a quarter of a century to achieve what we are trying to do in only 20 years. But the Americans, even with taking into account their unprecedentedly high naval ship-building potential, had many other resources: money, armaments, sailing personnel, and flying crews. Logistics also met expectations.

    What does Russia need? The first thing is money. Experience shows that it costs about $4 billion to build a modern aircraft carrier with a nuclear-powered propulsion plant (any other is unsuitable for this global system of weapons). Monthly maintenance costs (excluding personnel pay) are over $10 million.

    When untangling the mind-boggling information about Russia's present defense budget, we find that with a current bill of $35 billion a year and a defense order of just over $12 billion, the country will have to spend more than a billion dollars a year on the construction alone. The military, left "high and dry," will tangibly feel the pinch of the missing billion.

    But this would be possible only under the unrealistically ideal conditions where the pace of work is timed down to a minute and there is no inflation. Yet the military budget is not stretchable and cannot rev up like a speedboat.

    Then will come the second ship, the third and the next, and this at a time when the completed ones will have to be run and maintained. Or will the project call for building more than one at a time? If so, the costs will become much more impressive.

    After the ship is built it needs to be fitted with aircraft. Russia is going to compete with ships that carry a complement of 90 units each.

    Our carrier-based Su-33 fighter has evolved from the modified Su-27 Flanker jet initially developed for air defenses in the late 1960s. By the beginning of 2002, the country had produced just 24 of them. Nothing is known about plans to increase their production or develop new models. The first maiden flight from the deck of the "Admiral Kuznetsov" took place in 1995.

    Now a word about the "Admiral Kuznetsov" carrier. Launched in 1989, it has spent most of its life under repair. When an attempt was made to use it in sea trials in 2003, it started to sink. Once in 2004 and twice in 2005 landing accidents incapacitated it for long spells. And all that was accompanied by fires and multiple failures of the propulsion machinery.

    The ship is a classic mess with every part of it rotten or diseased.

    Just to complete the picture, here is a telling report from the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies: As of 2004, Russia had only 12 pilots capable of flying deck-based aircraft. Consult this memo: an aircraft group of Russia's "rival" has 3,000 elite-trained pilots, all put through grueling tests.

    Yet even if one air-capable group is built, armed and manned, there will be nowhere to base it, to say nothing about supply or repair. Out of Russia's four fleets, only the Northern and the Pacific ones can handle aircraft carriers.

    Meanwhile, the Northern Fleet has built no new storage facility, floating base or fixed mooring pier since 1993, because of the lack of financing.

    Compared with giant shipbuilding yards, ship repair facilities are fairly modest. However, the Northern Fleet considers ship repairs a high priority to keep it in good fighting condition and order. Their priority is not unique, but rather typical of the Navy as a whole.

    Ship repairs are currently financed at 6% of their requirements. In the Northern Fleet more than 200 combat ships, submarines and auxiliary vessels are in need of repair and only 10% of them have been repaired in recent years.

    Now take a look at India. Without any pomp it is going to launch its first 40,000-ton aircraft carrier in 2012. Aircraft have also been taken care of - they will come from Russia.

    The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti
    RIA Novosti - Opinion & analysis - Will Russia create the world's second largest surface navy?

  • #2
    Difference between Indian Planners and the likes of Russians and Americans, is this.

    Vision, long term Planning.

    Comment


    • #3
      IMO,
      If Russia forsees themselves building the second largest Navy then perhaps first they should seek to take care of the majority of wrecks they still have in their inventory first. The safety of the waterways that border their country should come first and foremost. And trust me there is alot to clean up some dating back as far as the Cold War.
      Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

      Comment


      • #4
        Dreadnought,

        Is it not, what they are doing. They have been scrapping their Soviet Union era ships more and more.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Adux View Post
          Dreadnought,

          Is it not, what they are doing. They have been scrapping their Soviet Union era ships more and more.
          We can only hope that they will do it in a much more responsible way then they have in the past. In the past were some real nightmares and I believe that a few gentlmen here know exactly what I mean.

          IMO I see three major obsticles to the above article.

          1) Being what we just discussed and in a safe manor. (Probable not happening)
          2) Logistics: India and Russia may build alot of carriers in the coming years but until they iron out logistics (refuel av gas,food,supplies) etc for those carriers at sea or establish bases (Syria we already know of) they wont be capable of range on a world class level. But if they are smart like you mentioned above build for the future. But the above takes alot of manpower and money and forethought and years upon years of practice and budget wrestling while keeping the carriers refitted and modern equiped.
          3)Air wing. The money and the trained pilots.

          I applaud them for looking at the bigger picture. In India's case the most important thing they should focus on is the "footprint" for their future carriers. One must be fully commitied to this or the money is wasted or they will never have a true India built carrier class and will rely on everybody else for their designs and timeframes.

          Just my opinion.:)
          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
            We can only hope that they will do it in a much more responsible way then they have in the past. In the past were some real nightmares and I believe that a few gentlmen here know exactly what I mean
            .

            Russians never had any money before.

            IMO I see three major obsticles to the above article.

            1) Being what we just discussed and in a safe manor. (Probable not happening)
            Safety and Russians..lol

            2) Logistics: India and Russia may build alot of carriers in the coming years but until they iron out logistics (refuel av gas,food,supplies) etc for those carriers at sea or establish bases (Syria we already know of) they wont be capable of range on a world class level. But if they are smart like you mentioned above build for the future. But the above takes alot of manpower and money and forethought and years upon years of practice and budget wrestling while keeping the carriers refitted and modern equiped.
            Russians are not people who are oblivious to playing Super Power. I will take their word, they have done it in the past, maybe not as well as the Americans but they have done it better than everybody else.

            While the Indians dont impress me at all. They have no long term plan or vision.


            3)Air wing. The money and the trained pilots.
            True, Money is only coming into these economies only now.
            I applaud them for looking at the bigger picture. In India's case the most important thing they should focus on is the "footprint" for their future carriers. One must be fully commitied to this or the money is wasted or they will never have a true India built carrier class and will rely on everybody else for their designs and timeframes
            Indians as I said havent impressed me at all. The commitment as you rightly pointed out is not there nor the understanding of what it takes to be a global player. We have too much Hippie Syndrome in us, heck we invented that.
            [/QUOTE]

            Comment


            • #7
              Adux,

              do you know what you are even talking about? Look at the latest acquisitions made by the IN. I see a long term plan by the IN to create a modern 21st century sustainable battle group albiet not along the lines of a US CVBG, but at least it is a CVBG capable of patrolling the blue waters. It takes time to develop these things. The difference between India and Russia is India's lack of a naval manufacturing base. That's India's biggest weakness. IN is working on correcting that flaw but it is hard with all those politics in India.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                Adux,

                do you know what you are even talking about?
                Actually I do,
                What you dont understand is the level in which I am trying to assess the IN.

                IN is working on correcting that flaw but it is hard with all those politics in India.
                We are still a Army centric Force, we have a lot distance to cover before we reach these levels. The question is have we developed the Doctrine, manufacturing base, technical base etc. With all the things going around us, we are slower than even Pakistan in terms of modernization in relation to the funds and manpower we have available.

                We have no aggressive intent.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I havent seen anything to suggest that we are serious in controlling the oceans, or rather i am not convinced and also disillusioned by our feeble and vision-less efforts.
                  Last edited by Adux; 20 Nov 07,, 18:06.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Then you have no clue in how to build a Navy. You just think you can wish all those gadgets and expect the IN to flawlessly operate those ships. That ain't gonna happen. You need to build blue water seamanship skills first and foremost and that takes time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Blademaster View Post
                      Then you have no clue in how to build a Navy. You just think you can wish all those gadgets and expect the IN to flawlessly operate those ships. That ain't gonna happen. You need to build blue water seamanship skills first and foremost and that takes time.
                      Did you see me talking about gadgets anywhere!!! I spoke about doctrine and skills. I am not some hormonal kid on PDF

                      Read again

                      and lets get back to Russia.
                      Last edited by Adux; 20 Nov 07,, 18:45.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Six carrier battle groups? From nothing?

                        Plausible but only if the oil and gas money continues flowing and if these carriers are pretty small and crap. In any case they can hardly match US experience, let alone funds, technology, etc.
                        HD Ready?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'll believe it when I see it. I recall there being many ambitious modernization programs being lauded by the Ministry of Defense. Where are they now?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                            You really don't want to get into a p!ssing contest when it comes to the US and Russia taking care of it's people.

                            How many Red Banner Northern Fleet sailors are suffering all the pains of hell thanks to the deliberate decision to lighten the reactor shielding to make their subs faster?

                            How many Kursk sailors are dead thanks to their leaders not caring enough about their lives to accept the help practically begged upon them by the other powers with adequate sub rescue gear?

                            We can do this all day long. There is no comparison when it comes to safety...especially the deliberate wastage of lives by the Soviets and Russians.
                            Trust me - if Russia says they want second biggest fleet - you should just discard it as a nonsense. Navy is very expensive thing and very technologically advanced - they have non of that. With all the oil they sell - it is not enough for such huge plans. Besides reliability of their navy vessels is horrible. American ships are usually serve for about 40-50 years - Russian Kirov is gone after merely 18 years of service. Russia don't have big ocean going facilities except Murmansk - which is ice free. Vladivostok is way to far from the canter to play any role over there and delivery of parts to this region is still facilitated by a century old Trans Siberian rail road (updated but still a century old), so big transit of bulky parts is out of the question. Military facility to build ships for Russian navy used to be Nikolayev - which is now Ukraine. Another one is Severomorsk by Murmansk but imagine having an ocean going fleet and only one credible repair center half the world away.
                            "We Shall Never Surrender" Winston Churchill

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                            • #15
                              I would take Russia seriously

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