Newsweek Cover: The Most Dangerous Nation in the World Isn't Iraq. It's Pakistan.

[Guest]

The October 29 issue of Newsweek (on newsstands Monday, October 22), "The Most Dangerous Nation in the World Isn't Iraq. It's Pakistan" looks at how Pakistan has become a safe haven for Taliban and Al Qaeda jihadists and what this means for the war on terror.

More information available at the following links:

Pakistan: The Most Dangerous? | Newsweek International | Newsweek.com

Newsweek Cover: The Most Dangerous Nation in the World Isn't Iraq. It's Pakistan.

After making it consistently to the list of world's failed nations, now Pakistan is world's most dangerous nation!!! maan... what a progress!!! any comments???

[Julie]

I already knew that, but some in the US are...well, misguided, or just pure blind. My only other comment to this will be if this is to start a flame thread, I've got a bucket of water on standby. :)

[Guest]

I already knew that, but some in the US are...well, misguided, or just pure blind. My only other comment to this will be if this is to start a flame thread, I've got a bucket of water on standby. :)

Well mod, I am sick and tired of flame threads... I normally do not indulge myself in arguments... Just curious to hear comments from other members on board :)

[Julie]

Well mod, I am sick and tired of flame threads... I normally do not indulge myself in arguments... Just curious to hear comments from other members on board :)

Oh goody then, :) ...we're on the same page with that.

My opinion is that, from 9/11, I have always thought Pakistan was the mother lode of terrorists, and financed by Saudis. :)

I also think that is where Bin Laden is, and has been for some time, being protected by tribal elders/warlords, and insuredly protected by the ISI.

I also think that the only way we will all know for sure, is when Musharaff, and/or Bush gets their claws out of everything.

[S2]

Julie Reply

"I also think that the only way we will all know for sure, is when Musharaff, and/or Bush gets their claws out of everything."

That deserves elaboration, don't you agree?

[Julie]

That deserves elaboration, don't you agree?

Well, of course it does. Over the past 6 years, I've watched things occur with Pakistan. It should go without saying terrorism is bred in that country by mullahs. Has Musharaff held up his end of the agreement for all that money, the US has paid his government, together with the lifting of sanctions? My opinion is no, and if the Bush Administration thinks so, they are oh so stupid. Each arrest made by the Pakistan Government was either prompted by a visit from the US, or prodded by the CIA. When Musharaff made that deal on the border with tribal chiefs, that just pretty much clenched it for me.

[Adux]

Well, of course it does. Over the past 6 years, I've watched things occur with Pakistan. It should go without saying terrorism is bred in that country by mullahs. Has Musharaff held up his end of the agreement for all that money, the US has paid his government, together with the lifting of sanctions? My opinion is no, and if the Bush Administration thinks so, they are oh so stupid. Each arrest made by the Pakistan Government was either prompted by a visit from the US, or prodded by the CIA. When Musharaff made that deal on the border with tribal chiefs, that just pretty much clenched it for me.

Terrorism is so deeply engraved in that country,

[S2]

Julie Reply

"When Musharaff made that deal on the border with tribal chiefs, that just pretty much clenched it for me."

Don't you think that he owed that much to his citizens, including those affected chiefs and their tribes, to encourage a de-militarization of the area? At least now that tribal attitude of recalcitrance is evident to the Pakistani population as a whole. Read PDF now and again. You'll note a surprising rise in sympathy with America as their posters recognize the threat to themselves.

I hardly know what we really expected of the Pakistani gov't. post 9/11, given the conditions as they've existed since December, 1979 when Afghanistan was invaded. What agreement would you be specifically referencing? I know that Armitage supposedly beat Musharraf silly shortly thereafter, or so it's been presented by the press.

"Each arrest made by the Pakistan Government was either prompted by a visit from the US, or prodded by the CIA."

That's rather absolute. Would you care to back off that comment or perhaps itemize the association between Pakistani arrests and U.S. gov't "prompting" or C.I.A. "prodding"?

Julie, I sure would like the Pakistani gov't to march it's army en masse to Pashtunistan and reassert their nat'l sovereignty fully. I suspect that many Pakistanis might agree, expressed in that manner. I don't understand their army nor their political constraints enough to understand fully why that hasn't happened, but they must exist.

It is the "heart of darkness" to me. That much we can probably agree. Nothing more can be realistically expected by our allies in Afghanistan. Their support will likely decrease, in fact, over time. Their commitment of troops is modest and their determination questionable. We'll have to increase our forces there to decisively alter conditions, IMHO. That won't happen soon.

[Adux]

Read PDF now and again. You'll note a surprising rise in sympathy with America as their posters recognize the threat to themselves.

That got nothing to do with feeling sympathy for the WoT cause, rather the resultant of their own failures. the fact that the monsters they created have outgrown them.

They are not sad about falling American or Afghan or Nato soldier

[Bluesman]

Well, alrighty then, let's hear some solutions from all the ten-pound brains in here. What y'all think we should DO about it?

Depose Musharaff through subversion?

Invade?

Military strikes?

Sanctions?

Diplomatic pressure?

Something so creative that only YOU have thought of it?

C'mon, should be EASY to sort this out. Tell me what the United States next move is, viz, Pakistan.

NOTHIN', that's what. We're riding the nuclear tiger, here. This is the ONE case that I'll tolerate the same kind of Cold War business-as-usual realpolitik that got us into this mess over the past 60 years: 'He may be a son-of-a-*****, but he's OUR son-of-a-*****.'

We simply have no choice but to back him. His country is a nuclear power, with an enormous crazy-Islamist population and problem. I don't like him, OR his whacko bat-sh!t-crazy people, and I think he's at least part of the problem with getting his idiotic, Islamo-fascist nutball fringe under control. He, also, is riding the tiger, and everytime he sits down with the head of ISI, he's looking across the table at a man he KNOWS would kill him in a second if he thought he could get out of the room alive himself.

He has limited options. He can't do what every expert that's weighed in on this thread wants, because that'll get him killed even faster than the little he's doing right now for us.

And what he's doing for us is NOT inconsiderable, either. He may not be our MVP in the War of Terror, but he's INFINITELY better than whatever slimy monster will succeed him. You think Bad Things come out of Pakistan NOW? Just WAIT, and see what happens after he's gone. We'll probably lose a city, and count ourselves lucky if we just lose ONE.

It's no news flash that Pakistanis are the most rolling-eyed fanatics in the Islamic Terror order-of-battle; got it. Just about every major case of terrorism anywhere in the world has a thread that can be followed right back to the benighted hell-hole; we all know that. But the GOVERNMENT of Pakistan is NOMINALLY an ally. Throw Musharfaff under the bus, though, or demand he get himself killed on our behalf, as some of you seem to be advocating, and we are on a quick trip to hell.

[Parihaka]

[B]
Julie, I sure would like the Pakistani gov't to march it's army en masse to Pashtunistan and reassert their nat'l sovereignty fully. I suspect that many Pakistanis might agree, expressed in that manner. I don't understand their army nor their political constraints enough to understand fully why that hasn't happened, but they must exist.

From what I've been able to glean, no one bothered asking the Pashtuns about the creation of the modern Pakistan. They have more in common with the Afghanis than with the 'Indianised' Pakistanis and regard themselves as separate from them. The Pakistanis seemed to regard them as backward and didn't think much of them until the current troubles and are only now starting to take them seriously since they've started setting off bombs in Karachi.
The problem with the army is many are Pashtuns, and Musharraf is terrified of splitting the army.

[S2]

Parihaka and Others

There are a couple of pretty good recent chats here. From Ray-

Why We're Losing In Afghanistan

and from Ironduke-

Pakistan Bombs Rebel Bases

The devil we know makes perfect sense given our present commitments elsewhere, including just across the Durand Line. Diplomatically, I'd hope that we'd let sleeping dogs lie as much as possible and afford GoP all the help that we can quietly muster.

[indus creed]

I don't know if it is technically possible, but can't US take out the nukes and the personnel connected with those weapons?

Bulk of the problem, which I believe is nuke and nuke-proliferation related, would be taken care of.

[dilawar]

From what I've been able to glean, no one bothered asking the Pashtuns about the creation of the modern Pakistan.

Unfortunately that is a part of history that is most tragic. You Sir are wrong here. Even before partition, when direct elections were held between the IML and the secular INC the only place that people voted against the Muslim league were the Pashtun. The leader that time was Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan. He held sway in the entire area now US struggles and Osama hides and Pakistani's can't control. Khan Abful Gaffar Khan was Pro India and Anti Partition. He was called the frontier Gandhi. He lived 3 decades under house arrest in Pakistan till his death almost 2 decades ago.

It has all changed from that time. There is no Gaffar Khan now, no Gandhian Muslim leader, a man whose principles and ethos found reverberation indirectly even in Indian cinema is no more. That same area now has been Talibanized. Every single one of them literally. There is now no way for anyone to root out what we consider evil, but an act of War. Let the Pakistani GOI do it or the US.

I just sit down with some beer and relax for the time being at least.

[Guest]

the monsters they created have outgrown them.

Very well said... I always had a feeling that this would happen... they were grooming a python that would turn against them one day...