Feanor, my last post about

[Bluesman]

The problem with communism is that it requires everyone to be altruistic, by force if necessary. Altruism isn't all that common.
That and they don't know shyt about economics.

As regards this thread, I think it's done it's dash and is a new record as it's the first time I've locked an introduction thread. Glyn or anyone else, I'll be happy to debate the merits of communism with you on a new thread.

I had a QUALITY post in Feanor's introduction thread, but it closed before I could get it in. It's too good to leave it, so here 'tis:

Gee thanks Blues, for your help in my 'pouring oil on troubled waters' routine! .

Hey, it's what I do.

In fact the THEORY behind communism is not evil..

Fervently disagree. It turns men into beggars; it treats them like economic units; it allows for the halt and the lame and the afflicted to be seen as 'parasites'; and it sets the conditions that allow for all the crimes in the whole horrible historical catalog to be perpetrated by men against
their fellow men.

In fact it is the most altruistic philosophy I have ever encountered..

Not when you understand what underpins the whole structure, it isn't.

It was however uniquely prone to frightful errors in implementation, as history has shown us..

What history has shown us is not its ERRORS, but its very NATURE. You weren't witnessing an aberration, friend; you were seeing it for what it is and always will be: a monstrous evil, masquerading as altruism.

It can be said that real communism has yet to be seen. And it is that, that is so attractive to some of the inhabitants of previously communist states, as well as to the 'have nots' of the world..

Let me demonstrate WHY we HAVE seen real communism with a story from Feanor's own past:

When Feanor was but a young lad, he came home from his first Young Pioneer's meeting, and he was trying to make sense of some of the terms he'd heard there for the very first time. His grandfather, so wise, was there, and the lad asked him what 'communism' meant. Grandfather said that communism was the ultimate development of mankind, and would be the perfection of the human model. Feanor was entranced. 'And are WE communists, Grandfather?' 'Alas, no, boy; we're socialists, the stage BEFORE communism. But when we get to that stage, why, we'll all eat strawberries and cream.' 'Grandfather, I don't LIKE strawberries and cream.' At this the kindly, wise old man with sparkly blue eyes disappeared, to be replaced a flinty, hard-mouthed authoritarian with a cold, piercing basilisk glare, and he bellowed, 'Under communism, you WILL like strawberries and cream, you counter-revolutionary scum!'

And THAT is why communism, even if human nature could be factored out, is deadly-dangerous and prone to - no, inevitably falls into - authoritarian nightmarish hell for those people unfortunate enough to be imprisoned by it.

Do I hate communists? No. I think they are mistaken but I respect their right to choose their philosophy.

Well, I certainly DO hate 'em, especially when they know what it's all about, not some naive college-age mis-reading of a 200-proof ideology, as attractive to the immature as strong, ****-sure thinking patterns tend to be.

But Feanor can't claim any ignorance; he KNOWS what he advocates, and what is at bottom of HIS acceptance of this loaded-gun belief system is he sees himself not as one of the masses, but one of the elite; he thinks HE will hold the whip.

And as I said earlier: I have as much respect for a creature like that as I do for a child molester.

Maybe even less.

[omon]

^^^ wow, sounds like psyop interpritation of communism.

[omon]

the biggest flaw in communism theory,it relyes on human qualities that are non exsistant, the communism is as achevable as utopia, even as a kid i tought there is no way in hell, it could work, no way soviet ppl, will get of their lazy butt, and stop seing vodka as the answer for all problems, and start actually doing something(some were able, but it was a miniscule ammount) otoh american capitalism , seemed like the most valid sys for humans with their weaknesses, not to mention, second amendment, i love the idea that a citizen has right to have a means to protect himself and his family and belives, without relying on authorities, (like they ever where you need them), thou now a days dems, are trying to destroy it,
may be with other mythical creatures communism can work, with humans, american capitalism works the best. i don,t see any other state system in the whole world that works as good as american capitalism.

[Bluesman]

Again, I maintain that, even IF human nature could be totally subdued and morphed into something non-human but compatible with that way of thinking, it's STILL an immoral system.

The problem isn't with the human operators of that machine; the problem lies in the contruction of the machine itself.

[glyn]

Again, I maintain that, even IF human nature could be totally subdued and morphed into something non-human but compatible with that way of thinking, it's STILL an immoral system.

The problem isn't with the human operators of that machine; the problem lies in the contruction of the machine itself.

All my years of service were effectively anti-communist activity and preparation, so you are rather preaching to the converted, dear heart! :) However communism is a spent force. Russia doesn't preach it. China does, but is still far more capitalist than most countries. That only leaves North Korea, Cuba and a few other no-hopers clinging to the wreckage. When they finally fall, communism will just be a period in history. Lessons will be drawn from that era by the historians of the time. People of this vintage (me and thee) will be considered to be too biased for our opinions to count in any scholarly history. The one thing I hope these future historians do not overlook is the way a political system effectively became yet another religion requiring total acceptance. However, if there's one thing we learn from history, it is that we never learn from history.

[Officer of Engineers]

APeople of this vintage (me and thee) will be considered to be too biased for our opinions to count in any scholarly history.

I hope not because it's the one thing that made us won without resorting to war - the absolute determination to confront the enemy wherever they are.

[Ray]

Each man to his own!

There is nothing wrong or right about any "-ism".

It is upto the people to have the - ism they desire.

Are Democrats better than Republicans? Some sure do think they are.

So?

Each to his own.

Also, about repressive regimes, much can be said on that. It is perceptions. Iraq is a repression as far as the Moslem mindset goes. If they have adequate international readership, then they can also show how horrid the Coalition is. But would that be the truth?

Propaganda is an important input in foreign policy!

One must be clinical and not be swayed by propaganda!

And it must be noted that Communism is no bedfellow of mine. I hate Indian Communists! Yet, I feel one should be even handed and not be swayed by dogma!

Or be a radical and a fundamentalist!

If one needles an individual, he sure will react!

And then one should be ready to take the thick with the thin fairly and not overpower with sheer weight!

[BD1]

[QUOTE=Bluesman;383464]IWell, I certainly DO hate 'em, especially when they know what it's all about, not some naive college-age mis-reading of a 200-proof ideology, as attractive to the immature as strong, ****-sure thinking patterns tend to be.

But Feanor can't claim any ignorance; he KNOWS what he advocates, and what is at bottom of HIS acceptance of this loaded-gun belief system is he sees himself not as one of the masses, but one of the elite; he thinks HE will hold the whip.

QUOTE]

At first I put him on the first category , but come to think about Bluesman is right . How can a man advocate a philosophy that has been the most murderous one in last century , system that killed tens of millions of his own countrymen . Economical system that has discredited itself so thoroughly that a quarter of the world is still digging themselves out of this sh!t .

I did a little surf on the website of his movement (Avantgarde of Red Youth).
- reading list - Ōåîðåōčũåņęčå ėāōåðčāëû íā www.AKM1917.org

- some slogans - Ōåîðåōčũåņęčå ėāōåðčāëû íā www.AKM1917.org . Communism is inescapable ! Сегодня - с листовкой, завтра - с винтовкой!- today with pamphlet , tomorrow with rifle !
- Мы разжигаем пожар мировой, банки и тюрьмы сравняем с землей! - We will start worldwide fire , tear down banks and prisons !
- Kill Bourgeois (sp?) / kill bourg. , only a dead bourg. is a good bourg. etc.
-Сталин - победа, Путин - беда! - Stalin - win , Putin - trouble . and so on

Unfortunately I have not much time to surf it more , and my Russian skill seems deteriorate quite quickly , so maybe somebody could do a better scan there .

I hope that finally the Communism gets itīs own Nuremberg Process . Itīs certainly needs one .

[Bluesman]

And here's proof of my original post in this thread: think an Estonian knows a thing or two about life under a boot?

Well, I sure think they do, and braindead, I appreciate the assist.

[BD1]

Omon : a while back one russian wrote something like this - Sov.Union was not perfect , but it was the only one we knew . It was home . - this is very reasonable and understandable , but there is certainly a difference in nostalgia and supporting a movement that seeks to restore it with all itīs faults and evils . Psyops or not

Ray - there is definately wrong with some -isms , at least in my world . Fascism , Communism , Satanism ( :) ) . If there is a chance to supress or eradicate some evils from menīs lives , then Iīm all for it .
Glyn - so communism is discredited by being a failure . What I want is condemning of communism - not because it did not work , but because it was unhuman .

[glyn]

Glyn - so communism is discredited by being a failure . What I want is condemning of communism - not because it did not work , but because it was unhuman .

Well, I don't sing its praises, but I don't condemn the original concept which was dreamed up in and for the 19th Century. The creators were unworldly dreamers, holding unrealistic and altruistic hopes for mankind. Their concept did not, could not, work and they would have been horrified had they lived to see what happened. They were not evil people but the people that developed their system and ruthlessly applied it to Russia and its vassal states most certainly were. They raised cruelty and repression to new levels of horror. The amazing thing is, so much of the world seemed to be following them at one time. Communism certainly changed history and the world forever.

[Bluesman]

Well, I don't sing its praises, but I don't condemn the original concept which was dreamed up in and for the 19th Century. The creators were unworldly dreamers, holding unrealistic and altruistic hopes for mankind. Their concept did not, could not, work and they would have been horrified had they lived to see what happened. They were not evil people but the people that developed their system and ruthlessly applied it to Russia and its vassal states most certainly were. They raised cruelty and repression to new levels of horror. The amazing thing is, so much of the world seemed to be following them at one time. Communism certainly changed history and the world forever.

I wish I could remember who said it, and the verbatim quote, but as applied to communism, one of my favorite sayings:

'There is nothing so noble as to be thought a foolish old man for having opposed a long-forgotten heresy.'

[Bluesman]

glyn, old colleague, they're talking about us, and many like us.

Maybe we'll be thought of as foolish old men for having dedicated our lives to opposing communism, but that's one heresy that, although memories are fading as to WHY it was so dam' evil, will not hold so many in its grasp for so long anymore.

We won, my friend, and we're ennobled by our small parts in winning that victory.

[BD1]

The creators were unworldly dreamers, holding unrealistic and altruistic hopes for mankind. Their concept did not, could not, work and they would have been horrified had they lived to see what happened. They were not evil people but the people that developed their system and ruthlessly applied it to Russia and its vassal states most certainly were. world forever.

- Iīm not very sure of the impartiality of this site , was looking for certain Marx quote . Here it is .
Karl Marx in the New York Tribune 1853, "Forced Emigration":


"Society is undergoing a silent revolution, which must be submitted to, and which takes no more notice of the human existences it breaks down than an earthquake regards the houses it subverts. The classes and the races, too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way.
Link : Marx & Friends in their own words

Bluesman : when Feanor told heīd like to meet you in person , I remembered my father-in-law : deported to Siberia 10 years old , worked as lumberjack in -45C when 11-12 years old . Heīs 69 years old and tough as nails. And probably would like to meet people like this and exercise the acquired skills of axe- and sawmanship

[omon]

Omon : a while back one russian wrote something like this - Sov.Union was not perfect , but it was the only one we knew . It was home . - this is very reasonable and understandable , but there is certainly a difference in nostalgia and supporting a movement that seeks to restore it with all itīs faults and evils . Psyops or not

.

i,m not sure i get your point, restoring what??? regime that never existed, or never can exsist?? i don,t know of any movement that seeks to restore it, do you??