If Kurita did not turn back

[IDonT]

Could Jesse Oldendorf's old battleships stop them?

Kurita had 4 battleships: Nagato, Yamato, Kongo, and Haranu

vs.

Pennsylvania, California, Tennesee, Mississippi, MAryland, and West Virginia.

[gunnut]

I would say yes, but it would have been a seriously bloody fight.

The old battle wagons were just slow. They were quite well armed. Those older 14" and 16" guns actually packed quite a good punch. The sheer throw weight of these weapons can easily top the 4 ships of the IJN.

However, a lucky shot from the Yamato's 18" could easily knock out an American ship.

Let's just say that barring any lucky shots in the opening round, both fleets would be terribly bloodied, and the Americans will win when the carriers arrive.

[Dreadnought]

Could Jesse Oldendorf's old battleships stop them?

Kurita had 4 battleships: Nagato, Yamato, Kongo, and Haranu

vs.

Pennsylvania, California, Tennesee, Mississippi, MAryland, and West Virginia.

Oldendorf's battleships were the survivors of Pearl with exception to Mississippi who wasnt there at the time of attack.

Presumably they would have to take out 3 of the IJN battleships in order to be able to concentrate on Yamato. This would be very diffacult given Yamatos range on the 18" guns. Yamato may have triumphed but she would have taken damage at minimum.

However, had Halsey caught Kurita, Halsey had the other battleships in company with him (New Jersey, Iowa,South Dakota,Washington,Alabama and Massachusettes.) He would certainly had plenty of firepower to send Kurita straight to the bottom beyond question. Yamato was an awesome battleship but she was the only one there with the 18" guns and could not outrun the Iowas so she would have to fight. Now had Halsey caught him the Yamato couldnt fight two Iowa's at the same time or even two South Dakotas for that matter nor outrun the Iowas. If Halsey had caught Kurita IMO Yamato would never have seen the end of the day. Halsey all together would have had 12 battlewagons against the four IJN battleships.

We would have to look at who had the better radars and the better FCR. Clearly Yamato had the range over the older battleships and I believe she also had the speed and armor. West Virginia did have 16"/45's the rest were 14"/45's (i.e. Pennsylvania). Also Pennsylvania could get 3 shots per tube per minute X 12 tubes. Thats alot of firepower for a 14/45" the others vary between 1-2 per minute. Like mentioned prior FCR and radar would have alot to do with it.

This could be well dragged out looking at every detail but Kurita was held off by destroyers and tenders. This tells me he didnt have the nerve to press forward and certainly would have ran when he saw another battlefleet on the horizion (Halseys TF38).

Would have been one hell of a fight until Halsey arrived with TF38. Then it would have been a massacre.

[IDonT]

Just assume that Kurita was going on a suicide mission, like Yamato did on Okinawa. (Fight until overwhelmed).

Does anyone know how many armor piercing shells Oldendorf's ships have? After all these were relegated to bombardment missions indicating most of their ammo loadout were HE. Furthermore, some of their armor piercing shells were expended the night before after desetroying Nishimura's force.

Kongo and Haruna had 14" guns and were up armored battlecruisers
Nagato had 16" guns and was a battleship on her own right.
The Yamato was designed to fight outnumbered by numerically superior but qualitatively inferior enemy. In this case, she would fight as designed. Furthermore, I believe Japanese gunnery is still on par with the US fleet and the crews were still qualitatively good (versus Japanese carrier force). American superior radar will find the Japanese range first.

Also for the old battlewagons, how sufficiently were they armored against high angle plunging shells versus low angle short range shot? An 18" hit on the deck may penetrate all the way to the magazine.

Here is the detailed battle order
7th Fleet Support Force.
Rear Admiral Jesse Oldendorf had six battleships (Mississippi, Maryland, West Virginia, Tennessee, California, and Pennsylvania, eight cruisers (heavy cruisers USS Louisville (Flagship), Portland, Minneapolis and HMAS Shropshire, light cruisers USS Denver, Columbia, Phoenix, Boise), 29 destroyers and 39 PT boats.

Kurita's Force (after dispatching Taffy 3) consisted of four battleships (Yamato, Nagato, Kongō, and Haruna), and nine cruisers (Atago, Maya, Takao, Myōkō, Haguro, Noshiro, Kumano, Tone, and Yahagi), supported by thirteen destroyers.

[Dreadnought]

The load out for Sea battle would have given them 3/4 magazine loadout with AP shells if they knew as they did a sea battle was eminent. The HE shells would have taken the lessor for dealing with land bases obsticals. Since they (U.S.) were still reading Japanese Naval code at this time load out would have dictated AP rounds for the majority.

IMO as far as radar ranging, First sight,First load,First bracket=First blood. If the first was a belt or bridge shot the battle could have been over before it started. This is where radar and FCR would have come into play heavily. Accuracy has always been questioned on the big guns. However if we look at both the Prince of Whales and the Bizmark both suffered a direct hit to the bridge killing all in that space...battle over. If Kurita runs away after sinking Taffy three and suffers a direct bridge shot who is too say that his XO wouldnt have dont the very same thing if he wasnt killed. They had all the guns but zero as far as balls are concerned.

The 18" shell may have penetrated the magazine. This was evident from the Arizona explosions however the altitude it dropped from played a large roll in this.

This still asks the question what if:

1) Halsey hadnt raced North with TF38
2) Kurita attacked the landing forces after sinking Taffy 3.


LOL This is the problem the "What if's" and will probably always be.

[TopHatter]

Does anyone know how many armor piercing shells Oldendorf's ships have? After all these were relegated to bombardment missions indicating most of their ammo loadout were HE. Furthermore, some of their armor piercing shells were expended the night before after desetroying Nishimura's force.

I'd have to do some digging online because my library is currently in boxes

As I recall, Oldendorf entered the Surigao Strait massacre very worried about his ship's stocks of main battery projectiles. Certainly after the battle he would not have been anxious to take on basically the biggest formation left to the IJN.

It probably would have been better to heed Kinkaid's plea: "Where is Lee? Send Lee!"

[temujin77]

If Kurita did not turn back, the American transports at Leyte would've been wiped out after Taffy 3 was driven off / destroyed. Isn't that more critical a fact than whether the Japanese battleships survive?

Besides, if Kurita had pressed on, what would've defeated his fleet would likely be Halsey's aircraft, not surface guns.

[IDonT]

If Kurita did not turn back, the American transports at Leyte would've been wiped out after Taffy 3 was driven off / destroyed. Isn't that more critical a fact than whether the Japanese battleships survive?

Besides, if Kurita had pressed on, what would've defeated his fleet would likely be Halsey's aircraft, not surface guns.

I don't believe so. Kurita would be busy with Oldendorf's fleet to pay attention to the transports. Oldendorf would use his ships as a shield against the Japanese fleet. Even if he destroys the 7th fleet itself, he still would have not accomplish his mission: to destroy the American Beachhead before the Third Fleet's aircraft came back to sink him. Same thing happend in the battle of Savo Island. Japanese Fleet destroyed the screening force but failed to destroy the transports.

I'm sure of the fact that Halsey would be relieved of command had Kurita press on.

[Shipwreck]

Does anyone know how many armor piercing shells Oldendorf's ships have? After all these were relegated to bombardment missions indicating most of their ammo loadout were HE. Furthermore, some of their armor piercing shells were expended the night before after desetroying Nishimura's force.

Ammunition Before Surigao Strait :

BB-38 Pennsylvania
* AP : 360
* HE : 93

BB-41 Mississippi
* AP : 201
* HE : 543

BB-43 Tennessee
* AP : 396
* HE : 268

BB-44 California
* AP : 240
* HE : 78

BB-46 Maryland
* AP : 240
* HE : 445

BB-48 West Virginia
* AP : 200
* HE : 175


Ammunition After Surigao Strait :

BB-38 Pennsylvania
* AP : 360
* HE : 93

BB-41 Mississippi
* AP : 189
* HE : 543

BB-43 Tennessee
* AP : 327
* HE : 268

BB-44 California
* AP : 177
* HE : 78

BB-46 Maryland
* AP : 192
* HE : 445

BB-48 West Virginia
* AP : 107
* HE : 175

[Shipwreck]

West Virginia did have 16"/45's the rest were 14"/45's (i.e. Pennsylvania).

USS Pennsylvania (BB-38) was the only battleship with 14"/45 guns at Surigao.

USS Maryland (BB-46) and USS West Virginia (BB-48) both had 16"/45 guns.

USS Mississippi (BB-41), USS Tennessee (BB-43) and USS California (BB-44) had 14"/50 guns.

[Shipwreck]

Also Pennsylvania could get 3 shots per tube per minute X 12 tubes.

Even an experienced crew would have had a hard time trying to achieve a 2 rpmpg ROF with USS Pennsylvania's 14"/45 guns.

[Dreadnought]

Pennsylvania's average rate of fire is listed between 1.5-1.75 shells per minute. In sea stories posted on few websites some claim because of the wear in the guns the rate of fire was higher even if not average. This is how she earned the nickname "Old falling apart".

[Dreadnought]

If this is any proof that practice makes perfect then the resulting rate of fire IMO is very possible:

Place
Pearl Harbor -0
Attu-324
Makin-403
Kwajalein- 827
Eniwetok-744
Saipan-Tinian 153
Guam-1797
Peleiu-662
Angaur-298
Leyte-866
Lingayen-640
Wake-140
Okinawa-0
Totals = 6854 rounds expended on bombardment of 14"\45. Thats alot of practice...probably more practice then most the bb's used during WWII.

It has been noted that several times at sea they trimmed the inserts off the barrels because of excessive rate of fire due to her gunnery. This could either be accounted to a high rate of fire or a less then adequate design of her guns neither of which has been explained.

Note that she went into Leyte Gulf and returned from Leyte without firing a shot. Its was blamed on her primitive radar and FCR which was not the case for her not firing a shot. This has been mentioned in many books by experts about the battle and until recent light shed upon it was believed to be true when in fact it was false.

[Dreadnought]

An excellent book about Leyte Gulf (both sides) will be released very shortly
The Book is called "Sea of Thunder": Four Commanders and the Last Great Naval Campaign, 1941-1945 by Evan Thomas

Definately on the list to read.

Also "Ship of Ghosts" The story of the USS Houston, FDR's legendary lost cruiser and her survivors. by James D. Hornfischer will be released as well.

[avon1944]

RE: If Kurita did not turn back

Note that she went into Leyte Gulf and returned from Leyte without firing a shot. Its was blamed on her primitive radar and FCR which was not the case for her not firing a shot.

I have read only 'once' that the Japanese were using ECM! If this were true then when the Japanese ships were damaged the ECM would cease. In your opinion, why did the Oldendorf's old battleships not fire more at the enemy?

Adrian