Prince Charles does not want to be "Defender of THE Faith"

[Ray]

Faith call for Charles coronation


Prince Charles wants to be "Defender of Faith" when he is king

Prince Charles should be called defender of the Christian religion, not all faiths, at his coronation service, an evangelical Christian group says.

The prince has said he wishes to become "Defender of Faith", not "Defender of the Faith", when he is king.

But the Evangelical Alliance says the ceremony for crowning him king is a traditional religious ceremony, and should be left or changed completely.

Clarence House said it would not be commenting on the suggestions.

'Duty to defend us all'

A modernised coronation service is said to have been planned which would incorporate other religious traditions.

But David Muir, policy director of the group - an umbrella organisation of evangelical Christians in the UK - said the coronation service was a religious ceremony, where the future sovereign swore to uphold the Protestant Christian faith.

"There needs to be a separate service where people of other faiths would also be included," he told BBC Radio Five Live.

"The actual service itself, until it is changed, is a religious service."

He added: "If they change that, that's fine."

The monarch already had a duty to "defend all our freedoms, all our rights", he said.

'Serious differences'

"Defender of the Faith" is a title used by all British monarchs since Henry VIII in 1521.

Prince Charles first expressed his wish to become Defender of Faith instead, in an interview in 1994.

He suggested the existing title implied the sovereign would protect only Christians.

The prince's position was seen by many as a reflection of multicultural Britain.

Earlier this year the Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, said all faiths could not be defended because of serious differences between them.

The suggestion is among about 100 recommendations made in a report from the Evangelical Alliance entitled Faith and Nation, to be published on Monday.

It covers areas including religious liberty, constitutional matters and the environment.

The Evangelical Alliance said Christians and other faiths gave their views for the report.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6073498.stm

I believe it is an unwritten law that the Monarch is the "Defender of the Faith" amongst this other titles.

In this modern, secular and PC times and when the Royals are attacked even if they sneeze, I think it is a very difficult choice for him.

Should he say he wants to retain the old title, the Moslems will pounce on him and the country for being parochial, as if UK was originally before the immigrants came, a sceular country!

Hence, its tough tittie for the Prince!

[dave angel]

this story came out years ago, by which i mean at least early nineties...

personally i have no problem with it, as technically the 'faith' being defended is 16th century Protestantism - which isn't very attractive, even to modern Protestants.

i actually quite like the idea of 'defender of the faiths as it declares a right to practice whatever religion or faith one see's fit. i know such things are there anyway, but haing such freedoms trumpeted in the current climate of ever more draconian legislation on almost every facet of life is rather nice.

[PubFather]

this story came out years ago, by which i mean at least early nineties...

personally i have no problem with it, as technically the 'faith' being defended is 16th century Protestantism - which isn't very attractive, even to modern Protestants.

i actually quite like the idea of 'defender of the faiths as it declares a right to practice whatever religion or faith one see's fit. i know such things are there anyway, but haing such freedoms trumpeted in the current climate of ever more draconian legislation on almost every facet of life is rather nice.

I'd agree with that sentiment. It wasnt all that long ago that the legislation was repealed that prevented a Catholic from ever becoming king. It's a nice moderisation of tradition.

The amusing thing about "Defender of the Faith" title is that it was first given to Henry VIII by the Pope, for writing an anti-protestant tract and has been used by English/British monarchs ever since... quite ironic really

[Ray]

Thanks.

I have studied British history and that is the most interesting part - a title that actually became technically defunct.

There is a public perception that Henry VIII created the Anglican church in anger over the Pope's refusal to grant his divorce, but the historical record indicates that Henry spent most of his reign challenging the authority of Rome, and that the divorce issue was just one of a series of acts that collectively split the English church from the Roman church in much the same way that the Orthodox church had split off five hundred years before.

Anglican church exists began in the sixth century in England, when Pope Gregory the Great sent St. Augustine to Britain to bring a more disciplined Apostolic succession to the Celtic Christians. The Anglican Church evolved as part of the Roman church, but the Celtic influence was folded back into the Roman portion of the church in many ways, perhaps most notably by Charlemagne's tutor Aidan. The Anglican church was spread worldwide first by English colonization and then by English-speaking missionaries.

End of lecture! :)

[Parihaka]

this story came out years ago, by which i mean at least early nineties...

personally i have no problem with it, as technically the 'faith' being defended is 16th century Protestantism - which isn't very attractive, even to modern Protestants.

i actually quite like the idea of 'defender of the faiths as it declares a right to practice whatever religion or faith one see's fit. i know such things are there anyway, but haing such freedoms trumpeted in the current climate of ever more draconian legislation on almost every facet of life is rather nice.

I agree. Defender of the Faiths moves the idea away from the CoE to a constitutional role as defender of the right to worship. Makes much more sense in a modern context.

[pdf27]

I'd agree with that sentiment. It wasnt all that long ago that the legislation was repealed that prevented a Catholic from ever becoming king. It's a nice moderisation of tradition.

Ummm... that legislation (Act of Settlement 1701) has NEVER been repealed. Last time they talked about it, Ian Paisley kicked up such a stink in the commons (ranting on about a Papist plot against British liberties). It is the only case I am aware of where a particular religion (Roman Catholicism) is specifically discriminated against in British law.

The amusing thing about "Defender of the Faith" title is that it was first given to Henry VIII by the Pope, for writing an anti-protestant tract and has been used by English/British monarchs ever since... quite ironic really

it's still on all UK coinage as well - if you look around the Queen's head you'll see text that goes something like "D.G.REG.F.D" which is an abbreviation of Dei Gratia Regina Fidei Defensor - By the Grace of God Queen, Defender of the Faith.

[PubFather]

Ummm... that legislation (Act of Settlement 1701) has NEVER been repealed. Last time they talked about it, Ian Paisley kicked up such a stink in the commons (ranting on about a Papist plot against British liberties). It is the only case I am aware of where a particular religion (Roman Catholicism) is specifically discriminated against in British law.

I stand corrected. I was mistaking this for the change to the law of succession whereby a female can succeed to the throne in spite of a younger male heir. (I'm now no longer confident that even that archaic legislation was ever repealed)

[Ray]

The act of settlement, 1701

Wednesday December 6, 2000
Guardian Unlimited

Whereas in the first year of the reign of Your Majesty, and of our late most gracious sovereign lady Queen Mary (of blessed memory), an Act of Parliament was made, entitled, "An Act for declaring the rights and liberties of the subject, and for settling the succession of the crown," wherein it was (amongst other things) enacted, established, and declared that the crown and regal government of the Kingdoms of England, France, and Ireland, and the dominions thereunto belonging, should be and continue to Your Majesty and the said late Queen, during the joint lives of Your Majesty and the said Queen, and to the survivor: and that after the decease of Your Majesty and of the said Queen, the said Crown and regal government should be and remain to the heirs of the body of the said late Queen; and for default of such issue, to Her Royal Highness the Princess Anne of Denmark, and the heirs of her body; and for default of such issue to the heirs of the body of Your Majesty.

And it was thereby further enacted, that all and every person and persons that then were, or afterwards should be reconciled to, or shall hold communion with the see or Church of Rome, or should profess the popish religion, or marry a papist, should be excluded, and are by that Act made for ever incapable to inherit, possess, or enjoy the Crown and government of this realm, and Ireland, and the dominions thereunto belonging, or any part of the same, or to have, use, or exercise any regal power, authority, or jurisdiction within the same: and in all and every such case and cases the people of these realms shall be and are thereby absolved of their allegiance: and that the said Crown and government shall from time to time descend to and be enjoyed by such person or persons, being Protestants, as should have inherited and enjoyed the same, in case the said person or persons, so reconciled, holding communion, professing or marrying, as aforesaid, were naturally dead.

After the making of which statute, and the settlement therein contained, your majesty's good subjects, who were restored to the full and free possession and enjoyment of their religion, rights, and liberties, by the providence of God giving success to your majesty's just undertakings and unwearied endeavours for that purpose, had no greater temporal felicity to hope or wish for, that to see a royal progeny descending from Your Majesty, to whom (under God) they owe their tranquillity, and whose ancestors have for many years been principal assertors of the reformed religion and the liberties of Europe, and from our said most gracious sovereign lady, whose memory will always be precious to the subjects of these realms: and it having since pleased Almighty God to take away our said sovereign Lady, and also the most hopeful Prince William, Duke of Gloucester (the only surviving issue of Her Royal Highness the Princess Anne of Denmark) to the unspeakable grief and sorrow of Your Majesty and your said good subjects, who under such losses being sensibly put in mind, that it standeth wholly in the pleasure of Almighty God to prolong the lives of Your Majesty and of Her Royal Highness, and to grant to Your Majesty, or to Her Royal Highness, such issue as may be inheritable to the Crown and regal government aforesaid, by the respective limitations in the said recited act contained, do constantly implore the divine mercy for those blessings: and Your Majesty's said subjects having daily experience of your royal care and concern for the present and future welfare of these Kingdoms, and particularly recommending from your throne a further provision to be made for the succession of the Crown in the Protestant line, for the happiness of the nation, and the security of our religion; and it being absolutely necessary for the safety, peace, and quiet of this realm, to obviate all doubts and contentions in the same, by reason of any pretended title to the Crown, and to maintain a certainty in the succession thereof, to which your subjects may safely have recourse for their protection, in case the limitations in the said recited act should determine.

Therefore for a further provision of the succession of the Crown in the Protestant line, we Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, do beseech Your Majesty that it may be enacted and declared, and be it enacted and declared by the King's most excellent majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, That the most excellent Princess Sophia, Electress and Duchess Dowager of Hanover, daughter of the most excellent Princess Elizabeth, late Queen of Bohemia, daughter of our late sovereign lord King James the First, of happy memory, be and is hereby declared to be the next in succession, in the Protestant line, to the imperial Crown and dignity of the said Realms of England, France, and Ireland, with the dominions and territories thereunto belonging, after His Majesty, and the Princess Anne of Denmark, and in default of issue of the said Princess Anne, and of His Majesty respectively: and that from and after the deceases of His said Majesty, our now sovereign lord, and of Her Royal Highness the Princess Anne of Denmark, and for default of issue of the said Princess Anne, and of His Majesty respectively, the Crown and regal government of the said Kingdoms of England, France, and Ireland, and of the dominions thereunto belonging, with the royal state and dignity of the said Realms, and all honours, styles, titles, regalities, prerogatives, powers, jurisdictions and authorities, to the same belonging and appertaining, shall be, remain, and continue to the said most excellent Princess Sophia, and the heirs of her body, being Protestants: and thereunto the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, shall and will in the name of all the people of this Realm, most humbly and faithfully submit themselves, their heirs and posterities: and do faithfully promise, that after the deceases of His Majesty, and Her Royal Highness, and the failure of the heirs of their respective bodies, to stand to, maintain, and defend the said Princess Sophia, and the heirs of her body, being Protestants, according to the limitation and succession of the Crown in this act specified and contained, to the utmost of their powers, with their lives and estates, against all persons whatsoever that shall attempt anything to the contrary.

II. Provided always, and be it hereby enacted, that all and every person and persons, who shall or may take or inherit the said Crown, by virtue of the limitation of this present act, and is, are or shall be reconciled to, or shall hold communion with, the See or Church of Rome, or shall profess the popish religion, or shall marry a papist, shall be subject to such incapacities, as in such case or cases are by the said recited act provided, enacted, and established; and that every King and Queen of this Realm, who shall come to and succeed in the imperial Crown of this Kingdom, by virtue of this act, shall have the coronation oath administered to him, her or them, at their respective coronations, according to the act of Parliament made in the first year of the reign of His Majesty, and the said late Queen Mary, intituled, An act for establishing the coronation oath, and shall make, subscribe, and repeat the declaration in the act first above recited mentioned or referred to, in the manner and form thereby prescribed.

III. And whereas it is requisite and necessary that some further provision be made for securing our religion, laws and liberties, from and after the death of His Majesty and the Princess Anne of Denmark, and in default of issue of the body of the said Princess, and of His Majesty respectively; be it enacted by the King's most excellent majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, That whosoever shall hereafter come to the possession of this Crown, shall join in communion with the Church of England, as by law established;

That in case the Crown and imperial dignity of this Realm shall hereafter come to any person, not being a native of this Kingdom of England, this nation be not obliged to engage in any war for the defence of any dominions or territories which do not belong to the Crown of England, without the consent of Parliament;

That no person who shall hereafter come to the possession of this Crown, shall go out of the dominions of England, Scotland, or Ireland, without the consent of Parliament;

That from and after the time that the further limitation by this act shall take effect, all matters and things relating to the well governing of this Kingdom, which are properly cognizable in the Privy Council by the laws and customs of this Realm, shall be translated there, and all resolutions taken thereupon shall be signed by such of the Privy Council as shall advise and consent to the same;

That after the said limitation shall take effect as aforesaid, no person born out of the Kingdoms of England, Scotland, or Ireland, or the dominions thereunto belonging (although he be naturalized or made a denizen, except such as are born of English parents) shall be capable to be of the Privy Council, or a member of either House of Parliament, or to enjoy any office or place of trust, either civil or military, or to have any grant of lands, tenements or hereditaments from the Crown, to himself or to any other or others in trust for him;

That no person who has an office or place of profit under the King, or receives a pension from the Crown, shall be capable of serving as a member of the House of Commons;

That after the said limitation shall take effect as aforesaid, judges commissions be made quamdiu se bene gesserint, and their salaries ascertained and established; but upon the address of both Houses of Parliament it may be lawful to remove them;

That no pardon under the Great Seal of England be pleadable to an impeachment by the Commons in Parliament.

IV. And whereas the laws of England are the birth-right of the people thereof, and all the Kings and Queens, who shall ascend the throne of this Realm, ought to administer the government of the same according to the said laws, and all their officers and ministers ought to serve them respectively according to the same: the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, do therefore further humbly pray, That all the laws and statutes of this Realm for securing the established religion, and the rights and liberties of the people thereof, and all other laws and statutes of the same now in force, may be ratified and confirmed, and the same are by His Majesty, by and with the advice of the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, and by authority of the same, ratified and confirmed accordingly.

Here it is.

Too blasted confusing.

[The Chap]

ray, ray ray

Online? Posted by "the" "Guidiiane". The anti monarchist lefty rag?

Where will the corronation occur? Cry (for) God Harry and St. George

[Ray]

You forgot the word 'England'.

A Scot or a Welsh or an Irish or a Cornwall chap?

[pdf27]

Online? Posted by "the" "Guidiiane". The anti monarchist lefty rag?

Wierdly enough the Grauniad has actually done some of the best coverage of Iraq of any newspaper. Audrey Gilliam(?sp)'s columns are really rather good, and she's even popped up on Arrse (as "minty mcginty") and owned up to who she is (to about the only positive reaction to a Journo I've ever seen on there).

[The Chap]

Honestly!

England is as read;
no-one else seems to actually do much as a characture;)

After this I'll be abed and probably shamed. When is St. Swithwotsits Day.

I think I shall start observing it.

[Officer of Engineers]

I thought you were a follower of Saint Patrick?

[The Chap]

for the record

Anglo-Catholic. Atheist.

[Officer of Engineers]

So, come St Paddy's Day, you're neither Irish, Green, nor downing a pint.