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  • The Road Map is Dead

    Palestinians Say There's Still Hope for State

    Saturday, May 08, 2004

    RAMALLAH, West Bank — Palestinian leaders said Saturday there was still hope for creating a Palestinian state by next year as scheduled if the United States is willing to push for serious peace talks.

    The comments came after President Bush suggested that the internationally backed "road map" peace plan's call for an independent Palestinian state in 2005 was unrealistic.

    Also Saturday, Israeli Justice Minister Tommy Lapid (search) threatened to pull his moderate Shinui party out of the government if Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (search) does not find a way to implement his planned withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

    In an interview published with the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram, Bush said ongoing violence had pushed back the road map's schedule for Palestinian statehood.

    "I think the timetable of 2005 isn't as realistic as it was two years ago," he said, according to a White House transcript of the interview released Friday.

    Bush's comment angered Palestinian leaders, who insisted a state could still be formed according to schedule.

    "It is realistic and more," Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (search) told reporters outside his compound in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

    Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia (search) called on Bush to reconsider his statement. "We have plenty of time to seriously negotiate, if the American administration indeed wants serious negotiations and wants to reach a final agreement," he said.

    "There is no longer an opportunity to delay this matter," Qureia said. "Wasting time is not in the interest of the peace process and stability in the region."

    Negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have stalled amid the continuing violence and both sides' refusals to fulfill their initial road map obligations. Israel has yet to pull down scores of unauthorized settlement outposts in the West Bank, and the Palestinians have said they will not dismantle militant groups for fear of sparking a civil war.

    On Saturday, the militant Islamic Jihad group condemned the Palestinian Authority for arresting two of its militants -- a would-be suicide bomber and his recruiter -- and called on its members to open fire at Palestinian security officers who come to arrest them.

    In a statement distributed in mosques in the West Bank town of Jenin, the group accused Palestinian security officials of trying to curry favor with Israeli intelligence agents for personal gain.

    With the road map stalled, Sharon had proposed a unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and a small part of the West Bank. His "disengagement" plan was defeated in a nonbinding referendum of members of his Likud Party.

    Hard-liners in Sharon's government said the defeat signaled the end of the plan, but Lapid demanded Saturday that it be presented to the Cabinet anyway, with only minimal changes.

    The Cabinet was expected to discuss the plan at its weekly meeting Sunday.

    "We are not ready to abandon the program," Lapid told The Associated Press. "If there is no progress we will have to consider leaving (the government)."

    The withdrawal of Shinui, the second-largest member of Sharon's coalition, could bring down the government, though the premier would likely replace it with ultra-Orthodox parties, which strongly oppose Sharon's proposal.

    Sharon himself says he remains committed to his plan to pull out of all 21 Gaza settlements and four others in the northern West Bank.

    "We must find a way to implement the disengagement plan because of its importance for the future of Israel," he said Friday.

    http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...119381,00.html

  • #2
    Palestine was never a state, it is just a myth. It was a territory of the Roman Empire, then later the Ottomon Empire, then Turkey, and Finnally Great Britian. The Palestinians are no different then the people in Jordan. Not only this, they have about as much right to the land Israel occupies as Nazi Germany had to Europe!

    Hell, of course the Roadmap is dead, it was dead as soon as it failed to recognize Israel's right to defend itself. Israel has the right to whatever land it so chooses. Israeli has tryed "Land for Peace" deals before and all it has brought them is more death and destruction. The west bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights do and ought to belong to the State of Israel.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Praxus
      Palestine was never a state, it is just a myth. It was a territory of the Roman Empire, then later the Ottomon Empire, then Turkey, and Finnally Great Britian. The Palestinians are no different then the people in Jordan. Not only this, they have about as much right to the land Israel occupies as Nazi Germany had to Europe!

      Hell, of course the Roadmap is dead, it was dead as soon as it failed to recognize Israel's right to defend itself. Israel has the right to whatever land it so chooses. Israeli has tryed "Land for Peace" deals before and all it has brought them is more death and destruction. The west bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights do and ought to belong to the State of Israel.
      I agree Israel needs to stop worrying about world public opinion (they are not going to be seen favorability anyway) and do what needs to be done in Palestine, which is to destroy the terrorists.

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      • #4
        I agree, if the IDF would just blow up Arafat's compound, terrorism wouldent exist b/c Arafat is the master terrorist.

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        • #5
          The Gaza strip and the majority of the West Bank have to be gotten rid of. Not because the Palestinians are right, but because theres no other way to remain both Jewish and a democracy. If Israel annexed the territories and refused citizenship to the Arabs in the area, that would be apartheid. And the status quo obviously cannot be maintained. So disengagement is the best chance. The Palestinians will never accept Israel's right to exist, the best that can be achieved is making it impossible for them to act on their hatred by separation.

          So while the territories belong to Israel according to justice. Practicallity, and morality (Palestinians are people too, they should be able to be citizens of SOMETHING) dictate land concessions. This time around though, Israel will decide what will be given up and what won't be. Jerusalem remains undivided and certain large West Bank settlement blocs will remain Israeli. Let the Palestinians have the rest. The Israeli government does not want them, lets see how Arafat enjoys governing these people, especially when he can't answer their whining to kill all the Jews with anything more than "some day!".

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          • #6
            A policy of disengagement will accomplish nothing, it will just cause Israel to appear weak and encourage more attacks, and history has shown this to be the case.

            How can you seperate Justice and Morality, if it is not Just then how can you claim it to be moral and visa versa?

            In order for something to be just in your eyes it must fit with your ethical code.

            Of course Israel just wants to be left a lone but creating a Palestinian state will not be a sollution to this problem. Destroying the enemy and replacing the hate teached by these psycos with actual academic material will solve this problem.

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            • #7
              Sorry, I worded that badly. Rather, by the rules of war and diplomacy the territories should belong to Israel, but by the ethical question of self-government, it should go to the Palestinians.

              Destroying the enemy and replacing the hate teached by these psycos with actual academic material will solve this problem.
              How though? Kill all the Palestinian teachers and send in Israeli teachers? The only thing you would get there is a lot of home schooling and a lot of dead Israeli teachers. I've given up on this whole concept of making them love us. They have combined death worship, nationalism, doublethink and newspeak to a degree that would surprise Orwell himself.

              I don't know that disengagement will work. I know it is not a new concept, but the way it is being implemented IS new. The technology and the man power at the IDF's disposal is allowing for a sealing of the borders that has never been possible anywhere else, either because the frontier was too big or the technology was lacking or the man power was lacking. But Israel is constructing an advanced barrier with all manner of sensors which will be armed to the teeth by a 180,000 strong army with 600,000 reserves over the borders of two very small geographic locations. These factors increase the odds of it working.

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              • #8
                Sorry, I worded that badly. Rather, by the rules of war and diplomacy the territories should belong to Israel, but by the ethical question of self-government, it should go to the Palestinians.
                Using your logic...
                Oops the Nazi's in Germany were supported by most of the people and the Government was German. Therefor we had no right to invade. After all they have the right to choose their own Government!

                Guess what happens after they build the wall, the terrorist take boats and blow up Israeli Ships, they will start to a greater degree targeting Israeli's abroad, etc. In the long run it helps no one and hurts everyone. Israel needs to take away the Palestinian's will to fight. They need to deal the Islamists and other Palestinian Terrorist a blow that they can not recover from. They need to view Israel as an unstopable force.

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                • #9
                  they invaded the rest of europe...slight difference.

                  The Palestinians would not be pushing a government onto Israel...not to say they wouldn't want to. But they wouldn't be able to. Whatever craptacular government the Palestinians produce would be for them alone to deal with.

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                  • #10
                    The Arabs attacked Israel, why is there any difference?

                    The territory they gained was not Palestinian territory(which never exsisted in the first place) it was Egyption, Syrian, and Trans-Jordan territory. Israel gained this territory in war's of self-defense.

                    The Israeli's themselves gained the right to their land by working it and turning it from a sparcly populated area into a thriving Middle East Economy. The most important reason they have a right to that land is that they protect the rights of it's citizens more so then any country in the region (once you initiate force, you negate your rights, therefor the Terrorist and their supporters have no rights).
                    Last edited by Praxus; 09 May 04,, 14:50.

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                    • #11
                      Okay, yeah, but its been going on far too long. The Israelis do go after the terrorists, their arsenals, and their homes. And it is working, the intifadah has been wrecked by the good work of the IDF. But what next? The status quo is good compared to what it was two years ago, but there has to be some conclusion. Either by expelling all the Palestinians, granting them citizenship, or giving them their own state. The first will never be done because the Israelis could never bring themselves to do it. The second is very very much a hated idea by the Israelis because they see it as "trojan horse" way of destroying Israel (and I agree). The third is the only other option unless you can think of something else.

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                      • #12
                        But the Palestinians aren't fighting because they want their own state they are fighting to destroy the state of Israel and all the Jews within it. The terrorism won't stop unless Israel is destroyed and hell the Palestinians wouldn't even accept the idea of a Palestinian state next to Israel. They rejected a plan that gave them something like 98% of the West Bank, essentially returning Israel to 1967 borders, but they rejected it.

                        Israel needs to use whatever means it requires to defend itself. Plain and simple, it is the only way they can protect the rights and lives of their people.
                        Last edited by Praxus; 09 May 04,, 18:47.

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                        • #13
                          I think Israel should act in its own interests and not let other nations dictate it. The road map is joke, Arafat reject the 97% plan in 1992, why would he accept the roadmap?

                          I don't see why arabs cry so much about Palestine, the Gaza and West Bank are tiny in comparison to the overall arab region. Why not (forcibly) send palestinians to Jordan and rename it.

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                          • #14
                            Yup, Israel should shuve them all into Jordan.

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                            • #15
                              Give us the history of Israel, Praxus. Even go back to the Biblical times. There were no Palestinians then?

                              Of course you will support the expansion of Israel that came into being only after the Balfour Declaration (in modern times) because of the contribution of the Jews for WW II. That Declaration was couched in homilies but was in actuality an excellent way to get rid of the Jews from Europe and the US. With expansion, more Jews will go. Isn't it a cosy game?

                              I reckon Jordan too is a part of Israel as also Iraq, Syria and Egypt and maybe the world including the US too?
                              Last edited by Ray; 09 May 04,, 19:41.


                              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                              HAKUNA MATATA

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