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Originally posted by Officer of Engineers WHAT A LOAD OF CROCK!
Most of the events that took place happenned during the Iran-Iraq War when Iran was the hotbed of Islamic terrorism.
Completely out of context and not reflective of the actual situations.
What about the post Iran-Iraq stuff? Either way, just like anyone trying to sell a political book durring an election year, he's going to spin it hard to make the sales.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
Originally posted by Confed999 What about the post Iran-Iraq stuff? Either way, just like anyone trying to sell a political book durring an election year, he's going to spin it hard to make the sales.
When did Iran stop being a priah? The only period when you start stating things going south is right after the Kuwait Invasion. Before then, Iran was (and is) still exporting the Islamic Revolution.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers The only period when you start stating things going south is right after the Kuwait Invasion.
Because that's when the short-sighted people of the world's governments acknowledged the problems in/with Iraq.
Not sure what the Iran-Iraq war has to do with French support of a government under UN sanction that fired on US and UK forces constantly.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
Originally posted by Confed999 Not sure what the Iran-Iraq war has to do with French support of a government under UN sanction that fired on US and UK forces constantly.
Before 11 Sept, the choice was between an Iraq or an Iran to dominate the area. Realpolitik was speaking then as it is now.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers Before 11 Sept, the choice was between an Iraq or an Iran to dominate the area. Realpolitik was speaking then as it is now.
As 99 red baloons float by? Realpolitik doesn't float in my tub. What are we without our morality and ethics? This kind of thing is exactly why we are where we are today. Evil is evil, regardless of it's location.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
Originally posted by Confed999 As 99 red baloons float by? Realpolitik doesn't float in my tub. What are we without our morality and ethics? This kind of thing is exactly why we are where we are today. Evil is evil, regardless of it's location.
And commit to over 100,000 men occupation of Iraq over a 10 year period at a cost of $5bil a year - for oil? How fast do you want to be voted out of office?
11 Sept gave the justification to do this. Not before.
I would not have wanted to commit to an occupation of Iraq back in 91. There was no justification. The war was over oil. I was in Kuwait with the 1CER after the war. Kuwait was no more a democrazy then and neither is it now. In fact, Iraq was more democratic then and even more so now under the Americans.
Back to the original topic, to the French (and the Chinese and the Russians), Saddam was a puppet they feel that they could control and in a Middle East dominated by the Americans and the British, it was their one card to break into the OPEC circle.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers And commit to over 100,000 men occupation of Iraq over a 10 year period at a cost of $5bil a year - for oil? How fast do you want to be voted out of office?
If SH's Iraq had never been supported by anyone, there would be no one to invade. I don't like the US supporting these people so it isn't shocking that I don't like France doing it. If it were the Congo it would have been for cobalt and uranium to some, I stay away from individual motives when talking about millions.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers 11 Sept gave the justification to do this. Not before.
If all the bad guys were left with only each other to talk to, they would be extinct by now.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers I would not have wanted to commit to an occupation of Iraq back in 91. There was no justification. The war was over oil. I was in Kuwait with the 1CER after the war. Kuwait was no more a democrazy then and neither is it now. In fact, Iraq was more democratic then and even more so now under the Americans.
I didn't want a war in Iraq ever, and if we stop supporting the people like Saddam now we won't have to repeat this again in 30 years. There are 2 things I like about Kuwait, the kids are nice and polite, and the stance the government took leading up to the invasion of Iraq. I don't care what form of government anyone chooses to support, as long as it's benevolent. I'm not sure any truly benevolent governments exist anymore, but some are obviously evil and should be dealt with quickly by those governments pretending to be benevolent.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers Back to the original topic, to the French (and the Chinese and the Russians), Saddam was a puppet they feel that they could control and in a Middle East dominated by the Americans and the British, it was their one card to break into the OPEC circle.
Then the "Axis of Weasels" could have looked like heros by pulling the "I'll just go live in France with Arifat's wife" string. They played their cards, they lost and I will forever put a portion of the blame on their sholders. Now don't get me wrong, that blame is spread over most of the governments of the world for one thing or another, I'm very critical of supporting bad guys. In my book, France was supporting Saddam even after the war started, and until the government and attitude changes I'll just wish them the best and try to keep track of what they're doing.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
Originally posted by Confed999 If SH's Iraq had never been supported by anyone, there would be no one to invade. I don't like the US supporting these people so it isn't shocking that I don't like France doing it. If it were the Congo it would have been for cobalt and uranium to some, I stay away from individual motives when talking about millions.
Have you forgotten about the Iran Hostage Crisis? Why are you surprised that we chosed to support Saddam?
Originally posted by Confed999 If all the bad guys were left with only each other to talk to, they would be extinct by now.
The fact that Stalin and Hitler talked scared the shit out of me. The saving grace was that they didn't divide the world between them.
Originally posted by Confed999 I didn't want a war in Iraq ever, and if we stop supporting the people like Saddam now we won't have to repeat this again in 30 years. There are 2 things I like about Kuwait, the kids are nice and polite, and the stance the government took leading up to the invasion of Iraq. I don't care what form of government anyone chooses to support, as long as it's benevolent. I'm not sure any truly benevolent governments exist anymore, but some are obviously evil and should be dealt with quickly by those governments pretending to be benevolent.
Again, Iran. We've let Iraq do the dirty work for us. At the time, it seemed a good choice. Why waste American blood in stopping Iran when you can use Iraqi blood? Short sighted perhaps but perfectly understandable.
Originally posted by Confed999 Then the "Axis of Weasels" could have looked like heros by pulling the "I'll just go live in France with Arifat's wife" string. They played their cards, they lost and I will forever put a portion of the blame on their sholders. Now don't get me wrong, that blame is spread over most of the governments of the world for one thing or another, I'm very critical of supporting bad guys. In my book, France was supporting Saddam even after the war started, and until the government and attitude changes I'll just wish them the best and try to keep track of what they're doing.
The Brits and the Americans kicked the French out of oil producing Middle East and Africa. They need a source of oil that they can control. They thought they could control Iraq as the Americans and Brits control Kuwait and Saudi. Control the oil and you control the world and the French does not want to be controlled.
I'm not agreeing with the French but after seeing the absolute American and British dominance of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, I can understand.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers Have you forgotten about the Iran Hostage Crisis? Why are you surprised that we chosed to support Saddam?
No I haven't forgotten the Iran Hostage Crisis. I was about 10. It was the first time the concept of "better off dead" really took hold. The US blew it and let those people suffer for 444 days. Saddam is no better, just a different face on the same demon.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers The fact that Stalin and Hitler talked scared the shit out of me. The saving grace was that they didn't divide the world between them.
Because evil can't have evil for an ally. Both would have been constantly stabbing each other in the back. Evil is a controller, not the controlled. No matter how much it seems you're pulling the strings, evil is not a slave it just wants you to think it is.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers Again, Iran. We've let Iraq do the dirty work for us. At the time, it seemed a good choice. Why waste American blood in stopping Iran when you can use Iraqi blood? Short sighted perhaps but perfectly understandable.
Never has been a good choice before, why would anyone think it will just start working? BTW, Iran survived and still must be dealt with.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers The Brits and the Americans kicked the French out of oil producing Middle East and Africa. They need a source of oil that they can control. They thought they could control Iraq as the Americans and Brits control Kuwait and Saudi. Control the oil and you control the world and the French does not want to be controlled.
I'm not agreeing with the French but after seeing the absolute American and British dominance of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, I can understand.
The Americans and British just think they control places, but that control could disappear in a moment. I understand the motivation but I will never agree with it. Evil is evil, and must be stopped not supported, or we will be doomed to allways fight creatures WE created. I hate that the US even talks to any of these people.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
Originally posted by Confed999 Never has been a good choice before, why would anyone think it will just start working? BTW, Iran survived and still must be dealt with.
You seemed to forget that Tito, Stalin, Chiang Kei Shek, Mao Tse Tung, and Ho Chi Minh were our WWII allies.
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers You seemed to forget that Tito, Stalin, Chiang Kei Shek, Mao Tse Tung, and Ho Chi Minh were our WWII allies.
I didn't forget them. That really didn't turn out well, we didn't end up controling them. No alliance with evil is worth the price, that's the lesson I take from it.
No man is free until all men are free - John Hossack
I agree completely with this Administration’s goal of a regime change in Iraq-John Kerry
even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act-John Kerry
He may even miscalculate and slide these weapons off to terrorist groups to invite them to be a surrogate to use them against the United States. It’s the miscalculation that poses the greatest threat-John Kerry
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