Promoting a Better America.

[Timeseer]

This Thread's entire use is to spill out American Issues and Concerns and see if we can create a better America.

If you don't want to create a Better America or don't want to see anything done in this thread, then by all means focus on bringing up an issue that concerns you more so than this thread that associates with a problem in the United States.
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Here is a list of problems I see with the United States.

1) Electorial College - it limits democracy on a National Executive Scale. The voting power for some people in the United States is associated less than with others. By that I mean several small states could equal the electorial vote of a much larger state, but there is still a large gap in terms of population representation when comparing the two entities.It insures the election of the President is not carried out by the full conscience of the American People.

2) Appointed Justices - it promotes too much control of Judicial proceedings by the conscience of an Executive Official. It also insures that the Justices can do very much whatever they please as long as they don't offend too much of the Senate.

3) Involvement in Foriegn Affairs - The United States should stop angering more muslims communities and just focus on Domestic issues and allow the UN to do it's job.

4) Stupid Presidents and Annoying Support for Stupid Presidents - The United States should focus on teaching children the fine points of politics and government issues. Moreover, they should insure that any issues they take in is completely from moderate material (neither left or right wing). There should be an intelligence examination to check the intelligence of voters and insure that those that do vote are smart enough to vote for someone base on their political values, rather than their appeal or prestiege. Finally, individuals that partake into government positions should be forced to take an intelligence examination so that we no longer have any "Bush Presidents."
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That's all I can think of for right now... I want to now see what other people have to say.

[dalem]

Here is a list of problems I see with the United States.

1) Electorial College -

I like the Electoral College - it scales voter influence to keep small states relevant while keeping small voter blocs irrelevant.

2) Appointed Justices -

It's good. The Executive Branch is indirectly elected for 4 year terms, the Congressional Branch is directly elected for 2 and 6 year terms, and the Judicial Branch is appointed by the Executive Branch for life. It gives a nice balance of continuity and responsibility to the Federal Government.

3) Involvement in Foriegn Affairs -

We are the most powerful nation on Earth - we will have foreign obligations, duties, and responsibilities as long as we maintain a strong economy and have national interests and allies. The possibility of a truly Isolationist America died decades ago.

4) Stupid Presidents and Annoying Support for Stupid Presidents -

Go f*ck yourself. Calling people stupid is not a good way to engage them.

-dale

[Bill]

Did the admin here buy a stupid poster tree or something? It's been raining dumbasses for weeks now...

[gunnut]

He asks some good questions other than his annoyingly stupid point on #4.

1) Electorial College - it limits democracy on a National Executive Scale. The voting power for some people in the United States is associated less than with others. By that I mean several small states could equal the electorial vote of a much larger state, but there is still a large gap in terms of population representation when comparing the two entities.It insures the election of the President is not carried out by the full conscience of the American People.

Many people feel the electoral college to be counter intuitive to a democracy, until they actually see how the system works. Allow myself to quote...myself, on a simple explanation of how the electoral college works.

It's a brilliant system that gives us our federalized government rather than a system like the European democracy.

America is first a federal system. The federal government derives power from the states. The states derive power from the people. The electoral college is to make sure each state's voice is heard. In this manner, the people of the state act as a single voice.

For example, 51% of the people in Utah prefer Candidate A. In essense, Utah elects A. Utah's consolidated voice is reflected in the electoral college by it's entire membership voting for A. It doesn't matter how much this state prefers A, it votes for A. Think of it as a single person. He may strongly agree with A, or he may prefer A over B because he doesn't like B. Either way he's voting for A.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...2&postcount=77

2) Appointed Justices - it promotes too much control of Judicial proceedings by the conscience of an Executive Official. It also insures that the Justices can do very much whatever they please as long as they don't offend too much of the Senate.

Except you forgot to mention the justices serve life ong terms, which enable them to rise above the petty politics that happens every single day on the Hill. This life long term also frees them from the presidents who appointed them. It's a check and balance system for the legislature and the executive branches.

3) Involvement in Foriegn Affairs - The United States should stop angering more muslims communities and just focus on Domestic issues and allow the UN to do it's job.

The islamists should stop blowing up our embassies and attack our buildings.

And please specify what UN actually does. Also give an outline on how you wish to give UN the power and authority to do this "job."

4) Stupid Presidents and Annoying Support for Stupid Presidents - The United States should focus on teaching children the fine points of politics and government issues. Moreover, they should insure that any issues they take in is completely from moderate material (neither left or right wing). There should be an intelligence examination to check the intelligence of voters and insure that those that do vote are smart enough to vote for someone base on their political values, rather than their appeal or prestiege. Finally, individuals that partake into government positions should be forced to take an intelligence examination so that we no longer have any "Bush Presidents."

We should have a system to eliminate this "elitist" attitude in our society. You speak of tolerance yet you can't stand people who hold a different opinion. You think they are different because they are stupid or they lack "critical thinking." It just isn't possible for someone to actually disagree with you. You are supreme. You are smart. You can't err. You know what you are? You have become the people you despise the most. Self-centered; egotisical; lack of logic; close-minded.

[Dreadnought]

BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE REMEMBER THESE WORDS. NOT PERFECT PEOPLE OR DUMB PEOPLE BUT THE PEOPLE

Lincolns own words.... "and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." The Gettysburg Address.

[YellowFever]

This Thread's entire use is to spill out American Issues and Concerns and see if we can create a better America.

If you don't want to create a Better America or don't want to see anything done in this thread, then by all means focus on bringing up an issue that concerns you more so than this thread that associates with a problem in the United States.
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Here is a list of problems I see with the United States.

1) Electorial College - it limits democracy on a National Executive Scale. The voting power for some people in the United States is associated less than with others. By that I mean several small states could equal the electorial vote of a much larger state, but there is still a large gap in terms of population representation when comparing the two entities.It insures the election of the President is not carried out by the full conscience of the American People.

2) Appointed Justices - it promotes too much control of Judicial proceedings by the conscience of an Executive Official. It also insures that the Justices can do very much whatever they please as long as they don't offend too much of the Senate.

3) Involvement in Foriegn Affairs - The United States should stop angering more muslims communities and just focus on Domestic issues and allow the UN to do it's job.

4) Stupid Presidents and Annoying Support for Stupid Presidents - The United States should focus on teaching children the fine points of politics and government issues. Moreover, they should insure that any issues they take in is completely from moderate material (neither left or right wing). There should be an intelligence examination to check the intelligence of voters and insure that those that do vote are smart enough to vote for someone base on their political values, rather than their appeal or prestiege. Finally, individuals that partake into government positions should be forced to take an intelligence examination so that we no longer have any "Bush Presidents."
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That's all I can think of for right now... I want to now see what other people have to say.

1) Without the electorial college, what you would basically have is candidates criss-crossing from New York to California to Florida and possibly Texas while ignoring most of the Mid-West states-you know..the bread and butter of this country....

2) If it was that easy for the Executive branch to appoint judges, Bork probably would have been a supreme justice by now. It's not a perfect system but it's helluva better than anything else I can think of.

3) We tried this policy way back when and it basically lead to WWII. Personally, it sickens me that most of the world hates us so for "interefering" especially since if something really goes wrong, these same people will be whining, "why did the US do nothing and let it happen?". Basically they want us to shut up and be one of them until something goes wrong. And then they want us to clean it up (like we've always done).

4) The US gov't shouldn't teach anybody ANYTHING! They are there to protect our rights and property and nothing more. "Moderate material" isn't always a good thing.
I was just going to repeat what dalem and snipe said in regards to your post but since you were seriously asking these questions, I thought I'd respond seriously.
Have a nice day ;)

[Shek]

This Thread's entire use is to spill out American Issues and Concerns and see if we can create a better America.

If you don't want to create a Better America or don't want to see anything done in this thread, then by all means focus on bringing up an issue that concerns you more so than this thread that associates with a problem in the United States.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a list of problems I see with the United States.

1) Electorial College - it limits democracy on a National Executive Scale. The voting power for some people in the United States is associated less than with others. By that I mean several small states could equal the electorial vote of a much larger state, but there is still a large gap in terms of population representation when comparing the two entities.It insures the election of the President is not carried out by the full conscience of the American People.

2) Appointed Justices - it promotes too much control of Judicial proceedings by the conscience of an Executive Official. It also insures that the Justices can do very much whatever they please as long as they don't offend too much of the Senate.

3) Involvement in Foriegn Affairs - The United States should stop angering more muslims communities and just focus on Domestic issues and allow the UN to do it's job.

4) Stupid Presidents and Annoying Support for Stupid Presidents - The United States should focus on teaching children the fine points of politics and government issues. Moreover, they should insure that any issues they take in is completely from moderate material (neither left or right wing). There should be an intelligence examination to check the intelligence of voters and insure that those that do vote are smart enough to vote for someone base on their political values, rather than their appeal or prestiege. Finally, individuals that partake into government positions should be forced to take an intelligence examination so that we no longer have any "Bush Presidents."
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That's all I can think of for right now... I want to now see what other people have to say.

Timeseer,
I'd love to hear your arguments about points #1 and #2 using the positions taken in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers. Given your stance in point #4, this should be a breeze. Thanks in advance.

[TopHatter]

Did the admin here buy a stupid poster tree or something? It's been raining dumbasses for weeks now...

Oh be nice

[Bill]

I humbly appologize good citizen, but it had to be said...Hehe

[Bluesman]

This guy is just another sniffy wog ponce that wants to spin us all up. Don't take the bait.

Let's all talk about PIE. I love it. Anybody else love pie? Mmmmmmm...pie.

[ArmchairGeneral]

This guy is just another sniffy wog ponce that wants to spin us all up. Don't take the bait.

Let's all talk about PIE. I love it. Anybody else love pie? Mmmmmmm...pie.

Hmm. Pie's good, but it's hard to beat a really good blackberry cobbler. I do so love blackberry cobbler. Better than butter cookies, that's for sure.

[Machiavelli]

Point one: The ambition of the US is to have a gov't of the people, for the people, yadda yadda. The FPP method used (combined with the electoral college) does not lead to true proportional representation, nor even come as close as many other systems. Yes, true democracy is unfeasible, but c'mon, you're not even trying. The deviation from true proportionality leads to far too many presidents who are not even elected by the majority (of the people who bother to vote).

point two: The president nominates candidates of his (or her, one day) own partisan persuasion. Given any period of time where a large portion of vacancies must be filled, this gives them the chance to stack the benches. Sure, filibustering is a grand thing, and ensures that the craziest ones are sent packing. But given that the supreme court has dabbled in ruling the outcome of presidential elections, it does not seem absurd to remove the nomination power from the president. Also, that the position is held for life is crazy. Hell, how about performance reviews every few years? The extreme of impeachment and conviction doesn't quite seem as much of a control. Only one has been impeached, and was promptly acquitted.

point three: The US is the hegemon of our global system. It takes on more of its share of the burden to ensure stability. It cannot become isolationist, as pointed out. It can stop illegally invading nations, funding juntas, and other underhand tactics (such as Bin Laden receiving CIA help when they were trying to mess around with Afganistan).
The recess appointment of John Bolton as US Ambassador to the UN shows how much contempt the current admistration has for the UN.

point four: No. Investments such as this in political culture will be a failure.
Having a free and open media, removed from the constraints of the political persuasion of their corporate overlords might have a better effect.

Most likely you'll see me being as crazy as the iterations shown directed at the initial poster.
But... they had a point :o

Edit: oh, pie. My teacher, mother, secret lover. A good rhubarb and apple one is nice. But I'm more partial to chocolate pizza.

[dalem]

Point one: The ambition of the US is to have a gov't of the people, for the people, yadda yadda. The FPP method used (combined with the electoral college) does not lead to true proportional representation, nor even come as close as many other systems. Yes, true democracy is unfeasible, but c'mon, you're not even trying. The deviation from true proportionality leads to far too many presidents who are not even elected by the majority (of the people who bother to vote).

What leads you to believe that "true proportionality" is the goal?

point two: The president nominates candidates of his (or her, one day) own partisan persuasion. Given any period of time where a large portion of vacancies must be filled, this gives them the chance to stack the benches. Sure, filibustering is a grand thing, and ensures that the craziest ones are sent packing. But given that the supreme court has dabbled in ruling the outcome of presidential elections, it does not seem absurd to remove the nomination power from the president. Also, that the position is held for life is crazy. Hell, how about performance reviews every few years? The extreme of impeachment and conviction doesn't quite seem as much of a control. Only one has been impeached, and was promptly acquitted.

As pointed out, lifetime appointments are designed to keep the justices "above" petty and/or short term political squabbles. Look at the justices and judges appointed by Republican Presidents who have turned into liberal stamping mills, for instance.

point three: The US is the hegemon of our global system. It takes on more of its share of the burden to ensure stability. It cannot become isolationist, as pointed out. It can stop illegally invading nations, funding juntas, and other underhand tactics (such as Bin Laden receiving CIA help when they were trying to mess around with Afganistan).
The recess appointment of John Bolton as US Ambassador to the UN shows how much contempt the current admistration has for the UN.

Delusional rewriting of history. And Bolton was forced to be a recess appointment because the Democrats refused to let his appointment proceed to the floor. We wanted Bolton because we want someone who is going to kick a little butt at the decrepit and corrupt UN, not someone who is going to embrace the status quo.

point four: No. Investments such as this in political culture will be a failure.
Having a free and open media, removed from the constraints of the political persuasion of their corporate overlords might have a better effect.

Most likely you'll see me being as crazy as the iterations shown directed at the initial poster.
But... they had a point :o

Not crazy, just ignorant.

-dale

[Machiavelli]

Crazy. Like a fox. Differing from your view point is not ignorance.

What leads you to believe that "true proportionality" is the goal?

When the actual numbers of votes fail to equal who is elected, that comes nowhere near the democratic principles that are so espoused and spread by the fine state of the USA.

As pointed out, lifetime appointments are designed to keep the justices "above" petty and/or short term political squabbles. Look at the justices and judges appointed by Republican Presidents who have turned into liberal stamping mills, for instance.

You make liberal sound so dirty. Why do you use it so disparagingly? Yes, 7 of the current justices were nominated by republicans, 2 by a democrat. (2 by GWB himself.) Miraculously, they have shifted into a wrinkly panel of somewhat equal sides, with one swing vote. Get another neo-con on the bench, and things start getting fscked up. For example, Roe v. Wade being repealed is not a prospect that should be dealt with in this day and age.

Delusional rewriting of history. And Bolton was forced to be a recess appointment because the Democrats refused to let his appointment proceed to the floor. We wanted Bolton because we want someone who is going to kick a little butt at the decrepit and corrupt UN, not someone who is going to embrace the status quo.

History as it is seen from my perspective, which obviously comes from a very different angle than yours, but makes it no more 'delusional'. Let's not get historiographical.
Bolton has done nothing constructive during his tenure, and is not a rational person to be representing the US in a diplomatic environment. Saying "There is no UN," and that it would function fine if the 7 top stories of the UN building were to disappear is not going to help "kick butt", but rather irk the people you should be fostering relations. But that's an entirely different chapter of an all too long international relations book.

[Shek]

point two: The president nominates candidates of his (or her, one day) own partisan persuasion. Given any period of time where a large portion of vacancies must be filled, this gives them the chance to stack the benches. Sure, filibustering is a grand thing, and ensures that the craziest ones are sent packing. But given that the supreme court has dabbled in ruling the outcome of presidential elections, it does not seem absurd to remove the nomination power from the president. Also, that the position is held for life is crazy. Hell, how about performance reviews every few years? The extreme of impeachment and conviction doesn't quite seem as much of a control. Only one has been impeached, and was promptly acquitted.

Recent history has demonstrated that judges certainly won't get a free pass (look at Nixon - he had two nominations that failed) and that President's don't always select candidates with their own ideology (look at Bush 41). Next, the Supreme Court ruled on the law in the 2000 election, and subsequent analysis showed that the Supreme Court ruling was a moot point. Gore's challenge would have yielded a loss anyways.

point three: The US is the hegemon of our global system. It takes on more of its share of the burden to ensure stability. It cannot become isolationist, as pointed out. It can stop illegally invading nations, funding juntas, and other underhand tactics (such as Bin Laden receiving CIA help when they were trying to mess around with Afganistan).
The recess appointment of John Bolton as US Ambassador to the UN shows how much contempt the current admistration has for the UN.

OBL never recieved CIA help. Read some real history. Also, quite an interesting viewpoint from someone who takes the name Machiavelli. Your screenname doesn't fit.