US troops being cut in Germany
- Thread starter Gun Grape
- Start date
Political reactions in Germany are mostly along the lines of "Trump administration further destroys trans-atlantic alliances" and "Take it as a chance to realign German security politics to a European viewpoint". And that's the ones that can be considered "positive" about it.
Interesting how they plan to pull this off in the midst of a nonmove order for DoD.
You can't even schedule a moving appointment at most installations.
You can't even schedule a moving appointment at most installations.
With the last update the nonmove order does not apply to troops in Germany as a host nation since it has relaxed shelter-in-place restrictions and exhibits downward trends in Covid-19.
Gun Grape
Resident Curmudgeon
Double Edge
Turbanator
Not really i think, if it refers to rebasings in the past couple years. Most of those were along the lines of no longer formally basing troops in Germany that were never there in full anyway (but instead deployed to e.g. Afghanistan). The real number of troops in Germany hasn't really changed much in the last couple years, since 2 SCR and 12 CAB fully redeployed to Germany.
Esper has announced the plans in detail, and to phrase it a bit differently:
To somewhat mollify Poland a new Corps HQ will be stationed there. To make up numbers for "let's punish Germany as Trump wants it" the USAFE strategic aircraft fleet will not be concentrated in Germany as planned but instead remain split between Germany and Italy.
All planned remaining 24,000 US soldiers in Germany work for the "logistics turntable" that solely supports US adventures in Eastern Europe and the Middle East as opposed to providing any sort of benefit to Germany, Europe or NATO.
For a more professional, shorter commentary read this Twitter series by Mark Hertling, former Commanding General of USAREUR and 7th Army.
- move all combat jets from Germany to Italy
- move all combat helicopters from Germany to Belgium
- move all combat ground forces from Germany to the USA
- close down USAG Stuttgart, shifting EUCOM over to SHAPE and AFRICOM to an undisclosed location
To somewhat mollify Poland a new Corps HQ will be stationed there. To make up numbers for "let's punish Germany as Trump wants it" the USAFE strategic aircraft fleet will not be concentrated in Germany as planned but instead remain split between Germany and Italy.
All planned remaining 24,000 US soldiers in Germany work for the "logistics turntable" that solely supports US adventures in Eastern Europe and the Middle East as opposed to providing any sort of benefit to Germany, Europe or NATO.
For a more professional, shorter commentary read this Twitter series by Mark Hertling, former Commanding General of USAREUR and 7th Army.
Last edited:
Officer of Engineers
Military Professional
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2003
- Messages
- 34,164
Here's hoping the Generals will start dragging their feet until Trump is out of office.
tbm3fan
Defense Professional
Will take months of planning and then some years to actually pull it off. So this time being a bureaucracy might actually work in favor of said bureaucracy.
Full transcript of press conference: https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Tr...rs-brief-reporters-on-european-force-posture/
And money equivalent to one-fifth to one-quarter of the German defense budget.
Gun Grape
Resident Curmudgeon
Funny how both of those countries spend less than the Trump magic 2% than Germany does.
If I was Chancellor for the day I would tell Trump since he is moving troops go ahead and close Ramstein and Landstuhl. We no longer want US troops at those locations since it is overkill for the number of combat troops remaining in Germany
If he wants to make it "Painful for me, I'll make it painful for the US
If I was Chancellor for the day I would tell Trump since he is moving troops go ahead and close Ramstein and Landstuhl. We no longer want US troops at those locations since it is overkill for the number of combat troops remaining in Germany
If he wants to make it "Painful for me, I'll make it painful for the US
Last edited:
She can't do that, that'd be appeasing non-conservative parties. Left and Greens call for closing Ramstein about once per year traditionally citing a variety of reasons. Last Federal Parliament rejection of such motions was in January.
Merkel stated after the annoncement in June:
"Should the USA out of their own free will decide to abandon [wanting to be a world power] we will have to deeply reconsider the [transatlantic relationship]".
Given that statement there's no further comment required from her now really.
And Kaiserslautern/Miesau....largest concentration of logistics and sustainment support outside of CONUS. Once you get west past the Daubenbornerhof it is 41 kilometers of almost continuous logistics bases all the way to Miesau Army Ammunition Depot. Ramstein & Landstuhl is right in the middle.
To be fair it's pretty stretched out east-to-west. It's pretty much only Ramstein where you have 5 km north-south extent. And there's 10 km of city with Kaiserslautern as well as 7-8 km of forest between Landstuhl and Miesau in those 41 km.
P.S.:
That would be falsely claiming that those locations are in any way required or supporting current combat troops in Germany.
I wonder what the US would do if Germany now announced a next Combined Aid exercise to be held say in 2022 say in this nice convenient now German-owned and -used training ground of Baumholder. As in, PLA troops 20 miles from Ramstein. Maybe include some MedEvac flights with helos from that convenient slightly distant airfield recently freed up, i.e. Spangdahlem.
And no, that's not particularly farfetched as Bundeswehr joint exercise planning goes.
Last edited:
looking4NSFS
New member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2009
- Messages
- 133
The following are some points made by French Lt. Gen Michel Yakovleff from the July AUSA magazine. I did include the link for the whole article below, as he goes into examples of the functional options for the Corps Headquarters vis a vis NATOs High Readiness Forces (Land) construct.
- So what does V Corps bring to the fight in Europe? If you look at it in the context of the increased spending NATO has accomplished, 2019 was the fifth year in a row that overall spending by the alliance has increased, a Corps (even the Corps FWD) brings a lot in the areas of political and strategic significance.
- The drawdown of forces in Europe basically started in 1990 during the first Gulf war, and as Kato mentions. “The real number of troops in Germany hasn't really changed much in the last couple years, since 2 SCR and 12 CAB fully redeployed to Germany.”
- But the focus now isn’t on US forces stationed in Europe/Germany. It is NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence and US forces in particular though not exclusively, rotate and exercise in Poland, Romania, Slovakia, the Baltic States, and in general engage in show the flag operations along the alliances eastern side.
- So we now have a persistent reinforcement strategy going on. The last REFORGER was in 1990. Defender Europe 2020 is the start of Division sized elements returning to Europe from CONUS. (Hopefully we can lay aside the Covid related downsizing of this event for the sake of discussion.) A Russian looking at this from the boarder of Belarus and Poland sees an America getting stronger in Europe, not pivoting to the Pacific as had been advertised.
- So as America continues to ask, some would say pressure, its European Allies to contribute more to the common defense, it is reasserting the role of leader of the West. The reactivation of V Corps in Feb 2020 adds to this leadership role.
- With the V Corps, America is signaling the how big a fight America will be willing to engage in during a European crisis. The fact that the headquarters is in Ft Knox KY, but the FWD element is in Europe, gives this organization the ability to scale up as a situation demands. Scaling up the FWD element gives the opportunity for political signaling and the message sent would be unmistakable.
(The following is from a Feb 11th announcement, the link is at the bottom.)
Remarks by General McConville: "Combatant commanders know they can count on highly-trained and ready Army forces as they implement the National Defense Strategy around the world. The activation of an additional Corps headquarters provides the needed level of command and control focused on synchronizing U.S. Army, allied, and partner nation tactical formations operating in Europe. It will enhance U.S. Army Europe and U.S. European Command as they work alongside allies and partners to promote regional stability and security."
Some other items of interest that the Corps will bring: The V Corps Headquarters will consist of approximately 635 soldiers, of which approximately 200 will support an operational command post in Europe on a rotational basis. The Corps Headquarters is projected to be operational by the fall of 2020. The establishment of V Corps enables the Army to fulfill requirements of the National Defense Strategy. It also supports a U.S. European Command request for increased command and control capability, and will support U.S. interests, allies and partners in the region.
https://www.ausa.org/articles/v-corps-could-serve-massive-role-europe
https://www.army.mil/article/232649/army_announces_activation_of_additional_corps_headquarters
- So what does V Corps bring to the fight in Europe? If you look at it in the context of the increased spending NATO has accomplished, 2019 was the fifth year in a row that overall spending by the alliance has increased, a Corps (even the Corps FWD) brings a lot in the areas of political and strategic significance.
- The drawdown of forces in Europe basically started in 1990 during the first Gulf war, and as Kato mentions. “The real number of troops in Germany hasn't really changed much in the last couple years, since 2 SCR and 12 CAB fully redeployed to Germany.”
- But the focus now isn’t on US forces stationed in Europe/Germany. It is NATO’s Enhanced Forward Presence and US forces in particular though not exclusively, rotate and exercise in Poland, Romania, Slovakia, the Baltic States, and in general engage in show the flag operations along the alliances eastern side.
- So we now have a persistent reinforcement strategy going on. The last REFORGER was in 1990. Defender Europe 2020 is the start of Division sized elements returning to Europe from CONUS. (Hopefully we can lay aside the Covid related downsizing of this event for the sake of discussion.) A Russian looking at this from the boarder of Belarus and Poland sees an America getting stronger in Europe, not pivoting to the Pacific as had been advertised.
- So as America continues to ask, some would say pressure, its European Allies to contribute more to the common defense, it is reasserting the role of leader of the West. The reactivation of V Corps in Feb 2020 adds to this leadership role.
- With the V Corps, America is signaling the how big a fight America will be willing to engage in during a European crisis. The fact that the headquarters is in Ft Knox KY, but the FWD element is in Europe, gives this organization the ability to scale up as a situation demands. Scaling up the FWD element gives the opportunity for political signaling and the message sent would be unmistakable.
(The following is from a Feb 11th announcement, the link is at the bottom.)
Remarks by General McConville: "Combatant commanders know they can count on highly-trained and ready Army forces as they implement the National Defense Strategy around the world. The activation of an additional Corps headquarters provides the needed level of command and control focused on synchronizing U.S. Army, allied, and partner nation tactical formations operating in Europe. It will enhance U.S. Army Europe and U.S. European Command as they work alongside allies and partners to promote regional stability and security."
Some other items of interest that the Corps will bring: The V Corps Headquarters will consist of approximately 635 soldiers, of which approximately 200 will support an operational command post in Europe on a rotational basis. The Corps Headquarters is projected to be operational by the fall of 2020. The establishment of V Corps enables the Army to fulfill requirements of the National Defense Strategy. It also supports a U.S. European Command request for increased command and control capability, and will support U.S. interests, allies and partners in the region.
https://www.ausa.org/articles/v-corps-could-serve-massive-role-europe
https://www.army.mil/article/232649/army_announces_activation_of_additional_corps_headquarters
I'm not seeing all that much Star-Spangled Banner.
Rotations into Romania (not Slovakia) are not part of NATO EFP, but a separate programme called "Tailored Forward Presence" (TFP).
TFP fields the socalled "Multinational Brigade" in Romania which factually consists of the Romanian 2nd Infantry Brigade, augmented by a rotating single US battalion, which usually is deployed from Germany. When a unit not stationed in Germany is used then the European Activity Set, a depot about 15 miles from where i'm sitting, is tapped for vehicles. In addition most larger-scale NATO-level troop exercises the last two years were held "around" this multinational brigade, contributing up to about battalion-strength troops from European NATO members.
On the South-East Flank there is also EAP which consists of four British Eurofighters providing a minimal interception capability for Romanian and Bulgarian skies (necessary as both countries have basically no modern aircraft).
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2003
- Messages
- 25,378
Reminds me of Larry Bond's novel Red Phoenix: After getting ordered to withdraw from South Korea, the US commanding general deliberately screws up the logistics of the departure so that US forces can stay a little longer in anticipation of a probable impending invasion.
looking4NSFS
New member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2009
- Messages
- 133
The article does talk about the agreement between Washington and Warsaw to increase the number of US forces in Poland. But it also goes into considerable detail about all the logistical, legal, political work to execute the movement of 12,000 troops out of Germany to Italy, Belgium and back to the States.
Link:
https://breakingdefense.com/2020/07...-permanent-us-troops-more-drones-special-ops/
Last and key paragraph:
The words of caution from the uniformed military about the proposed moves underscore the massive political, logistic, and physical lift the movement will entail. And as shown by the two-plus years of negotiations with Poland to move 1,000 more US troops there, forging new legal agreements with the Belgian and Italian governments will take time, with no guarantee that an agreement can be reached.
Link:
https://breakingdefense.com/2020/07...-permanent-us-troops-more-drones-special-ops/
Last and key paragraph:
The words of caution from the uniformed military about the proposed moves underscore the massive political, logistic, and physical lift the movement will entail. And as shown by the two-plus years of negotiations with Poland to move 1,000 more US troops there, forging new legal agreements with the Belgian and Italian governments will take time, with no guarantee that an agreement can be reached.
I remember when HQUSAREUR moved from Heidelberg to Wiesbaden. It took basically four years of planning and two years of execution along with over one billion USD. And that was for moving a few thousand men over a distance of 100 km between existing bases within the same country.