The Rise of China forum
- Thread starter Ironduke
- Start date
Merlin
Professor (retired)
The English word 'rise' is not commonly used to describe how a country is becoming strong and influencial. Thus many years ago they didn't say the rise of England, nor the rise of USA.
On the other hand, the term 'the rise of China', probably translated from Chinese, is now well accepted and used by the world media. Thus I find it all right to use it here at this forum.
Renaissance is not about strength and influence.
On the other hand, the term 'the rise of China', probably translated from Chinese, is now well accepted and used by the world media. Thus I find it all right to use it here at this forum.
Renaissance is not about strength and influence.
babydonhurtme
New member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2011
- Messages
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The most expensive thing I bought made in China was my 2k dollar pricetag hd tv about 4 years ago and it starting to show some pixel wear but it's just a tv. On the other hand I don't think I would buy a fire extinguisher made in China and feel safe. The thing with investments made towards China isn't based on issues like these but the motion of the whole economy. There is a real buzz that more and more people are getting rich in China regardless of truth or not investors will make the push for Chinese stocks. The blame of failure won't be on the daily labor rituals of the workers but on the stocks holders and whether they will place the investments to good use or not in order to help the world economy.
Vincent Lin
New member
Hello,erveyone. I am new in WAB.
Doktor
New member
Welcome!
Feel free to introduce yourself -> http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/wab-information-center/61571-new-all-one-introduction-thread.html
DOR
Voter
Whenever I see someone predicting the year in which China's economy will be larger than America's, I always want to (a) call the guy up and ask to see his assumptions; and (b) throttle the journalist for not asking about those assumptions in the first place.
If you want to peg the date within five to seven years, the only reasonable assumption is a quick jump in the value of the Rmb.
If you want to peg the date within five to seven years, the only reasonable assumption is a quick jump in the value of the Rmb.
O
Officer of Engineers
Guest
It has been renamed to the "East Asia and the Pacific" forum
Black Stone
New member
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- Jul 3, 2012
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- 3
Congratulations. thanks to wab for provide such a thread for us.
May I ask a question? Obama is a half-African, why he don't make policy pay attentions to Africa continent? And provide more assistance to African people? Instead of his government make a policy call "Ruturn Asia". According to some medias claim: "this policy are aimed at rise of China."
Our Aisan people( especially people of East Asia) business don't need USA people pay more attentions,we can take care of ourselevs, please!
USA people should help more people who are suffering the civil war and hungry people in Africa. Or other suffering people in the world,please!
Our Aisan people( especially people of East Asia) business don't need USA people pay more attentions,we can take care of ourselevs, please!
USA people should help more people who are suffering the civil war and hungry people in Africa. Or other suffering people in the world,please!
I beg you stop buy products made in China. If no made in China. The Consumer Goods prices of the world market will rise up three times at lest.Even the Wal-mart will shut down. So many consumers in many countries will pay more moneys to buy stuffs. Like the USA invent the television, But nowday Ameican people would not produce one television in American factories. China had made 118 millions televisions in 2010.
Of course, with Chinese workers salary rise up rapidly. The west companies who imvest in China mainlands complains their business cost rise very fast!
But If they don't want invest in China mainland! The west companies can move their moneys to other countries, like Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam,Myanmar or African countries. We don't care really.
Of course, with Chinese workers salary rise up rapidly. The west companies who imvest in China mainlands complains their business cost rise very fast!
But If they don't want invest in China mainland! The west companies can move their moneys to other countries, like Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam,Myanmar or African countries. We don't care really.
DOR
Voter
1) He puts US national interests first.
2) East Asian economies are quite intertwined with the US economy.
3) Perhaps East Asian people might be more helpful in Africa?
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Instead of shooting the NK refugees as they cross the Yalu River...that would be a good start.
cdude
Banned
Any source on how many NK refugees got shot by CHinese border guards?
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2003
- Messages
- 25,669
Nope, nothing open source.
I readily acknowledge that isn't the way things are done here on the WAB.
DOR
Voter
Perspectives from Far East economies
Perspectives from Far East economies
This is a speech I gave earlier this week at the EuroAsia Forum in Rome.
DOR
Recent financial and economic turmoil in Europe and the United States has let to a series of policy initiatives aimed at ensuring that such destructive crises are not repeated. Central banks are refocusing on bubbles, moral hazard and deflation. New global rules on financial transfers, tax information exchanges and capital adequacy ratios are being drafted and handed down for immediate implementation. Exchange of information among various authorities about bank accounts and other financial activities are being automatically enforced, without regard to privacy laws or legal jurisdictions.
Many people in the crisis-hit economies see these steps as necessary, perhaps even long overdue. They believe that increased transparency will curtail the kinds of activities that led to the collapse of confidence and economic demand in the United States and Europe.
The perspective from East Asia is somewhat different.
We suffered through financial and sovereign debt crises in the late 1990s, and learned important lessons that allowed the region to avoid the worst of the North Atlantic Crisis.
Among the lessons learned were these:
• Current-account imbalances are dangerous, regardless of fiscal accounts;
• Maintaining sufficient foreign exchange reserves is important;
• If the fundamentals are wrong, there is no such thing as a sufficient amount of foreign exchange reserves;
• Dependence on short-term capital flows to finance longer-term imbalances is dangerous;
• Rigid exchange rate regimes require market interest rates;
• Contagion is real, contagion doesn’t have to be rational, and contagion is very difficult to control;
• Central banks need to place great emphasis on combating moral hazard;
• Maintaining demand is central to economic recovery; and
• The IMF’s solutions are not always the right ones.
While the region did feel the effects of the North Atlantic Financial Crisis, it was in the form of the worst collapse in global trade in living memory. Last year, East Asia’s trade with the world, most of it internal to the region, totaled US$9.7 trillion, double the value of 2005. Today, the recovery is nearly complete, with only Japan, Taiwan and Indonesia yet to surpass their previous trading records.
So, what keeps the leaders of Asian nations awake at night?
Three things:
• Economic stability,
• Political stability and
• The rise of China.
Economic stability for most East Asian economies means exports, and that depends demand in Europe, the United States and other rich markets. While China is striving to shift from an investment- and trade-led economic model to one more balanced by domestic private consumption, the actual impact on trade flows is still some years off. Therefore, demand in the largest and wealthiest economies is still paramount, and the major concern is Europe.
Political stability comes in two flavors, domestic and international. In many cases, the two are closely tied, as in the case of Pakistan, the two Koreas and China’s western regions. Others, such as Myanmar and Thailand are more domestic and will hinge on decisions made at home.
The third factor is blended in with the first two. The rise of China as an economic, political, diplomatic, social and military power is seen by most as a foregone conclusion. While components and raw materials exporters are delighted with China’s demand for their products, and places like Hong Kong thrive on China-driven services and tourism, there is a growing sense of nervousness over the increase in economic dependency.
China is also seeking to expand its place in the world, including territorial demarcation. Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines are looking for both regional and international support for their objection to Chinese claims to islands and waters where ownership is clouded by history. And, they are worried about the United States’ commitment.
Why is China unique among late 20th century rapidly developing markets? The China market is vast, and cannot be ignored, even at the expense of geopolitical considerations. Today, China has little interest in most of the Bretton Woods multilateral institutions, where the distribution of political power is rooted in mid-20th Century strategic requirements. It will defend its interests in the UN, World Bank, IMF, WTO and elsewhere, but not at the expense of freedom of action.
Many commentators believe China needs to liberalize its political institutions, including the media and the judiciary, in order to protect and extend its economic gains. The balance between political control and economic liberalization is one we have seen in several other examples. What we haven’t experienced before is a rapidly emerging economy that cannot be bullied into submission. The Western world has no power to deny China access to capital.
Further, China’s leaders have seen what happens to a closed political and economic system that attempts to liberalize politics either before or in tandem with economics. Beijing has no interest in following a line it believes led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The last item on the list of major issues is water, which is closely linked to the environment and climate change. China is clearly the main player in this arena, owning as it does the source of continental South East Asia’s major rivers, including the Red River, Mekong, Salween, Irrawaddy and Brahmaputra rivers. Including West Bengal, about 100 million people outside of China depend on these waters, and similar number within China’s borders.
In the areas of trade, investment, the environment and international affairs, China will require a seat at the table. This will not always sit well with older, more established powers, but it is a fact of life. China has become too important to be ignored.
In 1980, China’s total imports from the world were just $20 billion. In 1998, China imported about $20 billion worth of goods from the European Union. This year, China imported the same amount, $20 billion, from the EU in a single month.
• China’s economy grew 7.7% in 2013, according to the official statistics, to Rmb57.9 trillion, which is equal to US$9.2 trillion. More important, the economy more than doubled in the past six years.
• It is 80th – behind Brazil and Mexico, among others – in income per person.
• Household consumption, 36% of GDP, is very low, but growing at double-digit rates.
• Capital investment is very high, at 48% of GDP, but so, too, is savings (over 50%).
• Credit has been expanding extremely fast in recent years, but inflation has been low.
• Foreign trade last year was equal to nearly US$4.2 trillion. The “export-led” economy imported nearly $2 trillion worth of goods last year, double the amount for 2009.
Perspectives from Far East economies
This is a speech I gave earlier this week at the EuroAsia Forum in Rome.
DOR
Recent financial and economic turmoil in Europe and the United States has let to a series of policy initiatives aimed at ensuring that such destructive crises are not repeated. Central banks are refocusing on bubbles, moral hazard and deflation. New global rules on financial transfers, tax information exchanges and capital adequacy ratios are being drafted and handed down for immediate implementation. Exchange of information among various authorities about bank accounts and other financial activities are being automatically enforced, without regard to privacy laws or legal jurisdictions.
Many people in the crisis-hit economies see these steps as necessary, perhaps even long overdue. They believe that increased transparency will curtail the kinds of activities that led to the collapse of confidence and economic demand in the United States and Europe.
The perspective from East Asia is somewhat different.
We suffered through financial and sovereign debt crises in the late 1990s, and learned important lessons that allowed the region to avoid the worst of the North Atlantic Crisis.
Among the lessons learned were these:
• Current-account imbalances are dangerous, regardless of fiscal accounts;
• Maintaining sufficient foreign exchange reserves is important;
• If the fundamentals are wrong, there is no such thing as a sufficient amount of foreign exchange reserves;
• Dependence on short-term capital flows to finance longer-term imbalances is dangerous;
• Rigid exchange rate regimes require market interest rates;
• Contagion is real, contagion doesn’t have to be rational, and contagion is very difficult to control;
• Central banks need to place great emphasis on combating moral hazard;
• Maintaining demand is central to economic recovery; and
• The IMF’s solutions are not always the right ones.
While the region did feel the effects of the North Atlantic Financial Crisis, it was in the form of the worst collapse in global trade in living memory. Last year, East Asia’s trade with the world, most of it internal to the region, totaled US$9.7 trillion, double the value of 2005. Today, the recovery is nearly complete, with only Japan, Taiwan and Indonesia yet to surpass their previous trading records.
So, what keeps the leaders of Asian nations awake at night?
Three things:
• Economic stability,
• Political stability and
• The rise of China.
Economic stability for most East Asian economies means exports, and that depends demand in Europe, the United States and other rich markets. While China is striving to shift from an investment- and trade-led economic model to one more balanced by domestic private consumption, the actual impact on trade flows is still some years off. Therefore, demand in the largest and wealthiest economies is still paramount, and the major concern is Europe.
Political stability comes in two flavors, domestic and international. In many cases, the two are closely tied, as in the case of Pakistan, the two Koreas and China’s western regions. Others, such as Myanmar and Thailand are more domestic and will hinge on decisions made at home.
The third factor is blended in with the first two. The rise of China as an economic, political, diplomatic, social and military power is seen by most as a foregone conclusion. While components and raw materials exporters are delighted with China’s demand for their products, and places like Hong Kong thrive on China-driven services and tourism, there is a growing sense of nervousness over the increase in economic dependency.
China is also seeking to expand its place in the world, including territorial demarcation. Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines are looking for both regional and international support for their objection to Chinese claims to islands and waters where ownership is clouded by history. And, they are worried about the United States’ commitment.
Why is China unique among late 20th century rapidly developing markets? The China market is vast, and cannot be ignored, even at the expense of geopolitical considerations. Today, China has little interest in most of the Bretton Woods multilateral institutions, where the distribution of political power is rooted in mid-20th Century strategic requirements. It will defend its interests in the UN, World Bank, IMF, WTO and elsewhere, but not at the expense of freedom of action.
Many commentators believe China needs to liberalize its political institutions, including the media and the judiciary, in order to protect and extend its economic gains. The balance between political control and economic liberalization is one we have seen in several other examples. What we haven’t experienced before is a rapidly emerging economy that cannot be bullied into submission. The Western world has no power to deny China access to capital.
Further, China’s leaders have seen what happens to a closed political and economic system that attempts to liberalize politics either before or in tandem with economics. Beijing has no interest in following a line it believes led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The last item on the list of major issues is water, which is closely linked to the environment and climate change. China is clearly the main player in this arena, owning as it does the source of continental South East Asia’s major rivers, including the Red River, Mekong, Salween, Irrawaddy and Brahmaputra rivers. Including West Bengal, about 100 million people outside of China depend on these waters, and similar number within China’s borders.
In the areas of trade, investment, the environment and international affairs, China will require a seat at the table. This will not always sit well with older, more established powers, but it is a fact of life. China has become too important to be ignored.
In 1980, China’s total imports from the world were just $20 billion. In 1998, China imported about $20 billion worth of goods from the European Union. This year, China imported the same amount, $20 billion, from the EU in a single month.
• China’s economy grew 7.7% in 2013, according to the official statistics, to Rmb57.9 trillion, which is equal to US$9.2 trillion. More important, the economy more than doubled in the past six years.
• It is 80th – behind Brazil and Mexico, among others – in income per person.
• Household consumption, 36% of GDP, is very low, but growing at double-digit rates.
• Capital investment is very high, at 48% of GDP, but so, too, is savings (over 50%).
• Credit has been expanding extremely fast in recent years, but inflation has been low.
• Foreign trade last year was equal to nearly US$4.2 trillion. The “export-led” economy imported nearly $2 trillion worth of goods last year, double the amount for 2009.
Doktor
New member
Dave,
Thanks for the input.
The usual question... the absolute numbers are adjusted for inflation?
Thanks for the input.
The usual question... the absolute numbers are adjusted for inflation?
DOR
Voter
Doktor,
Inflation has been so low in recent years that it wouldn’t really matter. Economic growth, as usual, is real/constant/adjusted for inflation; dollar or Rmb values are not. Doubling economic size over 6 years is not inflation adjusted (that would have taken all of 7 years).
For net GDP estimates multiply GDP growth by inflation. GDP growth usually has inflation factored out, and is correct when directly applied to PPP GDP. High inflation, along with exchange rate fluctuations, will reduce the PPP multiplier and thus move the ratio between PPP GDP and nominal GDP closer to 1 (or less, if your cost of living is already high).
So, China's approximate inflation rate is 2.5%. China's GDP growth target is 7.5%. Multiplied together, you get 10.18% nominal GDP growth. That implies a doubling every 7 years. The US GDP growth rate has been 2% as of late. US inflation is about 2% as well. Multiplied together you get 4%, which implies a doubling every 18 years.
So, China's approximate inflation rate is 2.5%. China's GDP growth target is 7.5%. Multiplied together, you get 10.18% nominal GDP growth. That implies a doubling every 7 years. The US GDP growth rate has been 2% as of late. US inflation is about 2% as well. Multiplied together you get 4%, which implies a doubling every 18 years.
G
Guest
Guest
I have a question:
Wouldn't China's rise be more peaceful and beneficial for China if it aligned itself with the United States. China's rise depends heavily on global trade, and since the US controls the seas, wouldn't it be prudent to be less confrontational? Furthermore, it would allow China to focus more and use more resources on relieving internal pressure; pressure which is likely to be quite significant in the future and could lead to regionalism?
Wouldn't China's rise be more peaceful and beneficial for China if it aligned itself with the United States. China's rise depends heavily on global trade, and since the US controls the seas, wouldn't it be prudent to be less confrontational? Furthermore, it would allow China to focus more and use more resources on relieving internal pressure; pressure which is likely to be quite significant in the future and could lead to regionalism?
Well, I was going through another site, came across an interesting discussion:
What if Japan changes side to China? With all the technology, reserves and assets outside its territorial limits, won't USA crumble under the combined weight? After all, 50 years down the line, Japan will have to live right next to China.
Just like Israel secretly supports the monarchs/dictators (may be) of its hostile neighbours to tame general hostility of their respective citizens.
What would USA do to save itself?
What if Japan changes side to China? With all the technology, reserves and assets outside its territorial limits, won't USA crumble under the combined weight? After all, 50 years down the line, Japan will have to live right next to China.
Just like Israel secretly supports the monarchs/dictators (may be) of its hostile neighbours to tame general hostility of their respective citizens.
What would USA do to save itself?
chanjyj
Member
This will never happen - too much animosity between the countries. It's an implausible scenario.
gunnut
Official Thread Jacker
Not gonna happen until Japan apologizes for WW2 and admit fault.
Japan is stuck between a rock and a hard place. There is very little good will toward Japan amongst east and southeast Asian countries, for a very good reason. Most have suffered from Japanese aggression and brutality in WW2. Japan has never admitted fault nor apologized for anything done to its neighbors in WW2. Japan needs to trade with its neighbors and be involved in east Asian affairs if it were to compete with North American trade pact. But...most of east Asia is hostile toward Japan.
We know this and we got Japan right where we want it to be to contain China. We don't need Japan to apologize to us. We bombed the living crap out of it and we consider that debt paid already.
By the way, it's not just WW2. Japan has been at war with China in one form or another for centuries. Japan has colonized Korea decades before WW2.
Japan ditching the US and form an East Asian Alliance with China and Korea? I don't think so.
DOR
Voter
Inst,
Get out your calculator and plug in 0.075 * 0.025. If it doesn't come out as 0.01875, i.e., 1.875%, you've miscalculated. More important, you shouldn't be multiplying at all. The gross rule of thumb is that he real GDP growth rate PLUS inflation is roughly the nominal rate of change in GDP.
We usually "factor in" (not "out") inflation when working in real terms, and never, ever, mix the rate of economic growth with PPP.
FinLly, both the US and China have a whole lot less inflation than you think. Deflation, in fact, at least this year.
DOR
Voter
Quick first half 2015 wrap-up—
Real GDP growth 7% p.a. Year-on-Year in both quarters.
Consumer inflation up 1.2% in the first quarter, 1.4% in the second.
Retail sales +13.9% in Q-1, +14.1% in Q-2 (both nominal).
M-0 (cash) money supply +6.3% in Q-1, +2.9% in Q-2.
M-1 money supply +2.9% in Q-1, +4.3% in Q-2.
M-2 (broad) money supply +9.9% in Q-1, +10.2% in Q-2.
Merchandise exports Q-1 +4.6%; Q-2 -2.2%.
Imports -17.8% Q-1 and -13.6% Q-2.
Real GDP growth 7% p.a. Year-on-Year in both quarters.
Consumer inflation up 1.2% in the first quarter, 1.4% in the second.
Retail sales +13.9% in Q-1, +14.1% in Q-2 (both nominal).
M-0 (cash) money supply +6.3% in Q-1, +2.9% in Q-2.
M-1 money supply +2.9% in Q-1, +4.3% in Q-2.
M-2 (broad) money supply +9.9% in Q-1, +10.2% in Q-2.
Merchandise exports Q-1 +4.6%; Q-2 -2.2%.
Imports -17.8% Q-1 and -13.6% Q-2.
DOR
Voter
Money supply growth has been slowing, very sharply, for quite a while.
Imports are in nominal dollar terms, loaded with price adjustments as well as volume changes.
Continental economies don't necessarily respond to what happens on their coastal fringes; low inflation reflects slow demand across the sweep of China, not just in the Eastern cities.
DipannitaMBagh
New member
China's infrastructural development in Myanmar since 2012 has now taken a major setback given the rising importance of civil society within the newly transitional democracy...forthcoming days to be pretty difficult if the Myanmar Home Affairs ministry comes up with well settled land-use measures.