The Korean Dilemma

[tbm3fan]

The Defense Minister proposed declaring martial law to President? Ah, so even though he is the one to propose to the President he will either stay or resign. Up to the President. Is Kim proposing a Get Out of Jail card for Yoon? My fault so I'll take the blame. Well then take the blame you wimp.

Both should be well done toast.

 

[Monash]

What concerns me is that the ROKA Generals who obeyed this clearly illegal order, were not Yoon's yes-men.

Was it technically 'illegal' though? If at law the President has the power to declare a national emergency and order a national mobilization. Having received the order to do so? The generals involved may well have been legally obliged to mobilize. The key issue I believe would have been the Presidents follow up orders i.e. what were they to do once mobilized. For example any orders to say arrest opposition leaders and impose a national curfew would clearly be illegal in these circumstances.

The thing is I haven't seen or read any news indicating what the else the generals actually did after being ordered to mobilize,.

 

[Monash]

What emergency? There's no Intel about any riots, NKs crossing the border. Nothing indicating the need for the military to move out the barracks. An officer's job is to determine the threat. What threat? If no threat, then moving against the capital is clearly illegal.

And if f it was an earth quake or typhoon would that be classed as a military emergency? The point I was trying to make that mere act of ordering a national mobilization by itself would not necessarily be illegal. For example if it was done as an exercise it would not be illegal. What I'm trying to point out is that if the President merely orders 'the armed forces to mobilize' that might not be illegal since he has the authority to do so. It's the follow up bit, the reason he gives and or the follow-up orders that he issues which could get him into deep s**t . For example 'I order the armed forces to mobilize because ...... exercise, earthquake, military incursion? Yes! I order the military to mobilize because .... I want to stage a political coup? No!

 

[Gun Grape]

He is toast. The impeachment requires a 2/3 approval and they might get unanimous on Saturday. The President committed seppuku.

But he cannot be impeached because the Current Supreme Court doesn't have enough members. Either 2 or 3 retired this year and the Congress hasn't appointed new ones.

Seppuka is a Japanese thing Korea doesn't have any tradition like that

 

[Gun Grape]

I'm still bewildered that this happened out of the blue with zero indications of any crisis. However, the North Koreans cannot be happy that the ROKA reacted so fast.

Most Koreans that I know believe his wife talked him into it. She has been involved in many scandals. And the President may have had the Justice Dept "Look the other way" in her latest scheme.

He was most likely looking at being impeached, Some of his ministers have already. A long shot that failed.

 

[Monash]

We would have the Intel for earthquake or typhoon.

My point was that I don't know/haven't heard what was in the official mobilization orders. I could be mistaken but as yet I don't think they've been made public. Until we do? As far as I'm concerned the Generals are in a dammed if they do dammed if they don't situation. The President has the the legal authority to authorize a mobilization. It's one thing to just say 'mobilize' it's another to say 'mobilize and stage a coup'. If specifics weren't included the the mobilization orders the obvious answer would be to order the mobilization to commence and immediately seek clarification as to the purpose. Until specific instructions were issued? Any mobilized troops would stay on base.

 

[Monash]

Kudos, now you've got it. Never mind the military, Korean police was also called out ... to no riot.

Err... that was my point from the beginning.

 

[Monash]

Well if the reports I'm reading now are correct it was the Defense Minister who ordered the mobilization of the (apparently few) troops that did deploy. In particular an SK special forces unit that was helicoptered to the parliamentary compound and deployed throughout the building. No word on whether the President ordered him to do it or whether he decided to do so on his own initiative (for his sake I hope not!) but that would be the normal chain of command if the President was the one who issued the order anyway so it's still not clear who did what. Also no explanation as to what those troops orders were once they arrived. The officer in command of the unit is apparently insisting that the troops were not deployed with orders to seek out and confront civilians preemptively and that none of the troops involved were issued with live ammo. If that's true it's anyone's guess WTF they were actually expected to do once they got there - other than look intimidating. So I guess the question is who were they supposed to intimidate?

 

[Monash]

*** Shaking my head *** Clearly a coup and Gen Park put his name on it, now trying to weasel out. Nobody owns their decisions.

Yep, the news about the arrest list only broke here late in the afternoon yesterday. What I want to know now and what will be interesting to learn is what specific orders were given to the few units that initially deployed. If the statement I mentioned earlier from the CO of the special forces unit is true and his troops went into the parliament complex without ammunition (if it's true)? Then its possible the President and or Park were trying to 'boil the frog' i.e. first issue mobilization orders for vague/unspecified reasons and then only after troops have occupied specific locations (without any clear understanding of why they are actually there) start issuing orders for arrests. From watching the video of the scenes inside Parliament when the troops arrived it certainly didn't look like they had a clear idea of what they were there for. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. Even if he isn't impeached he and his party will be toast at the next election. Mind you there's a very good chance he will be given he apparently had the head of his own party on the list of officials to be arrested. :redface:

 

[rj1]

http://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp8n0ng2m88o

So it's not a civil war because people aren't shooting at one another, but it's a civil conflict of some kind as in one of our close allies we have military bases in and our troops are assigned to fight and die for in the event of Chinese and North Korean invasion, they can't figure out their internal affairs. It greatly weakens the current government if they can't go arrest this man.

 

[Monash]

Someones eventually going to start issuing arrest warrants for the presidential security team. Then things will get 'interesting'.

 

[statquo]

US special forces killed N Korean civilians during botched mission: Report

US special forces killed several North Korean fishermen diving for shellfish after encountering them by accident.

United States Navy SEALs shot and killed several North Korean civilians during a botched mission in 2019 to plant a listening device in the nuclear-armed country, reportedly approved by US President Donald Trump, a leading US news outlet reports.

The New York Times reported on Friday that the classified mission was carried out by the US Navy’s SEAL Team 6 during high-stakes diplomatic negotiations between Washington and Pyongyang in early 2019.

The elite special forces unit – the same one that killed former al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011 – was tasked with covertly going ashore in North Korea and planting a listening device to spy on the country’s leadership.

But working in the dead of night with blackout communications, a series of errors led to civilians – several North Koreans reportedly diving for shellfish – inadvertently coming across the US special forces as they splashed ashore.

The SEALs opened fire, killing all those on board a small fishing vessel, the Times report said, without specifying the number of casualties.

Officials familiar with the mission told the Times that the US soldiers “pulled the bodies into the water to hide them from the North Korean authorities”. One source described how SEAL members “punctured the boat crew’s lungs with knives to make sure their bodies would sink”.

The Times said it gained knowledge of the botched mission through interviews with dozens of people, “including civilian government officials, members of the first Trump administration and current and former military personnel with knowledge of the mission”.

All spoke on condition of anonymity due to the mission’s classified status, the news outlet said. It added that several people said their decision to provide details was out of concern that the US military’s special operations failures are “often hidden by government secrecy”.

Sources said President Trump, during his first term in office, gave the mission its final go-ahead.

Trump denied any knowledge of the operations when questioned by reporters about the report on Friday.

“I could look, but I know nothing about [it],” Trump said.

“I’m hearing it now for the first time,” he said.

US officials said it was “unclear” whether Pyongyang ever pieced together what had happened in 2019.

North Korea did not make any public statements about the deaths of civilians at the time and has yet to comment on the story published by the Times.

——————————————————————

 

[Monash]

The mission wasn't a success, so naturally this is the first time Trump's heard of it.

 

[rj1]

US special forces killed N Korean civilians during botched mission: Report

US special forces killed several North Korean fishermen diving for shellfish after encountering them by accident.

United States Navy SEALs shot and killed several North Korean civilians during a botched mission in 2019 to plant a listening device in the nuclear-armed country, reportedly approved by US President Donald Trump, a leading US news outlet reports.

The New York Times reported on Friday that the classified mission was carried out by the US Navy’s SEAL Team 6 during high-stakes diplomatic negotiations between Washington and Pyongyang in early 2019.

The elite special forces unit – the same one that killed former al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011 – was tasked with covertly going ashore in North Korea and planting a listening device to spy on the country’s leadership.

But working in the dead of night with blackout communications, a series of errors led to civilians – several North Koreans reportedly diving for shellfish – inadvertently coming across the US special forces as they splashed ashore.

The SEALs opened fire, killing all those on board a small fishing vessel, the Times report said, without specifying the number of casualties.

Officials familiar with the mission told the Times that the US soldiers “pulled the bodies into the water to hide them from the North Korean authorities”. One source described how SEAL members “punctured the boat crew’s lungs with knives to make sure their bodies would sink”.

Would they have sank the boat? I presume yes, otherwise you got this idle boat out there floating with no one on board.