My first rifle purchase - Grizzly Bear Defence in mind - SKS?

Ever consider the good old Elephant gun used by colonialists in Africa and India, I'm sure it would stop a bear.

I wonder if playing CDs of a particular Canadian lady singer would have a better effect on the bears...:rolleyes:
 
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lemontree said:
Ever consider the good old Elephant gun used by colonialists in Africa and India, I'm sure it would stop a bear.

I wonder if playing CDs of a particular Canadian lady singer would have a better effect on the bears...:rolleyes:
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If we could put a boom box around the neck of every grizzly in Canada and have them play her "best hits" O&E would "silenced" all of them within the first week. I'd almost feel sorry for those bears.
 
Actually, I would be laughing my ass off watching you trying to hang a boom box around a grizzly's neck.
 
Doktor said:
LT & Bonehead,

If I may ask what have Grizzlies done so bad to be subjects to such a terror?
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I just thought that using local resources is the best and most economical way of solving a problem.
But I think the elephant gun would be a better solution.
 
My Stepbrother is really into elephant guns, he inherited a couple from his Dad, and loves to shoot them. He even wrote a book about hunting dinosaurs - obviously fictional on the part of the quarry, but it is quite serious about these big shoulder cannons and their comparative abilities. One thing that impressed me was how expensive they are and their ammo is equally dear (I saw some that were over 20$ a round). I am sure an elephant gun would drop a grizzy just fine, but it would hardly fulfill our friend's financial constraints. Stephen Templar's book is quite instructional about what gives a projectile the ability to knock down a large dangerous animal - he did a lot of research and talked to many experts and ammunition manufacturers. It appears that a carefully designed flat end called a meplat on a solid bullet makes a big difference. Some modern ammunition takes advantage of this effect, in particular some Barnes sabot slugs use this technology.
 
I fired a .458 Winchester Magnum exactly once. There was nothing pleasant about it. I know they are cool, just not very practical.

The ballsy 19th century ivory hunters used two-barrel 4-bore smoothbore guns throwing a one inch hardened lead ball. Two shots, you are done. If the tusker is alive and pissed, you are in a lot of trouble.

Of course the weapon of choice for today's ivory poachers is the AK-47. They simply hose the elephant down. Apparently it works, so maybe the original idea of an SKS is not that bad.
 
Chogy said:
I fired a .458 Winchester Magnum exactly once. There was nothing pleasant about it. I know they are cool, just not very practical.

The ballsy 19th century ivory hunters used two-barrel 4-bore smoothbore guns throwing a one inch hardened lead ball. Two shots, you are done. If the tusker is alive and pissed, you are in a lot of trouble.

Of course the weapon of choice for today's ivory poachers is the AK-47. They simply hose the elephant down. Apparently it works, so maybe the original idea of an SKS is not that bad.
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They usually have a couple of poachers hosing the tusker and occasionally one of them doesn't make it.
They also have to wait a while while it dies.

My brother mentioned that a couple rounds from his .416 Rigby or .500 nitro takes weeks to recover from.
 
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Chogy said:
Of course the weapon of choice for today's ivory poachers is the AK-47. They simply hose the elephant down. Apparently it works, so maybe the original idea of an SKS is not that bad.
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They shoot the elephant from behind or at the very least not in direct line of sight. An AK-47 will kill an elephant but not before it charges. You have to be damned sure you're not in the line of charge.

As Whiskie pointed out, some poachers are too stupid to realize this.
 
I think I would enjoy seeing a pissed off elephant dancing on a poacher with an AK...
 
You want something large in calibre that can fire lots of heavy rounds in a short space of time to stop charging dangerous game. High velocity rounds like you'd be firing from an SKS are likely to pass through the animal at close range and don't transfer all their energy, so they aren't as good. That makes the 12 gauge pump or even a semi-auto, perfect.

Be aware that shotguns with slugs kick like a mule, so you'll need to practice quite a bit to get used to firing off quick, controlled shots. That is going to be reletively expensive as slugs are the most expensive type of round, but I figure if you invest for say 50 for range practice you should be right. 2 3/4 inch cartridges will be adequate and don't kick as much as 3 inchers. Also, get a gun with a good recoil pad or get one fitted. Remember to get a gun with interchangeable chokes for versatility and to only use your slugs on lite chokes like cylinder, skeet or improved cylinder - but if you do get a fixed choke gun make sure it is in one of these chokes. I'd take rifled slugs and a smooth barrel over sabot slugs and a rifled barrel as the latter are smaller and faster, so they aren't going to have the same close- range hitting power. As I understand it the semi-autos kick a little less as they use some of the gasses or recoil to re-cock the gun ... I believe Remington produced an excellent semi-auto which is discussed on a thread about shotguns on this board, but I'd be careful about getting a new Remington at the moment as they have reports of quality issues. You don't want your gun to fail in the face of a grizzly!

If you have your heart set on a rifle I'd be looking at a high calibre lever, something like a .45-70 or a .444 Marlin, though again you need to be sure that you can handle it because they kick like a horse. Also be aware that they are loud, so if you have to use them in an emergency when you don't have hearing protection get used to the idea that your ears are going to be ringing for hours afterwards, especially if they have a ported barrel, as they are loud. Really, if you are going to get one of those you need to have some practice on something smaller first so get a .22 as well. Personally I think the shotgun is the better option though, if you can only have one gun a shotgun is the most versitile with it's range limitations (and the most fun on the Sporting Clay range!).
 
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In the USA, at least, a rifled 12 bore gun would be considered a DD (destructive device) and would be classed the same as a Bofors cannon or a hand grenade. It could be owned, but you'd have to pay a $200 tax and have a background check, like civilian machine gun ownership.

Such a gun (rifled 12 bore with a big slug) would be very potent on large game. But since rifling above 1/2 inch (.50 cal) is a DD, they are uncommon.

There is a company called Anzio Iron Works in the USA that sells a shoulder fired "rifle" chambered for the 20mm Vulcan cannon shell.

View attachment 29868

Perfect for rampaging T-rex, alien monsters, or terrorists riding in armored vehicles immune to the .50 BMG. ;)

These wonderful folk have also developed a cartridge that skates on the USA destructive device characterization by necking down the 20mm Vulcan to .50 caliber. Now you've got a .50 BMG bullet sailing along at 3600 fps! I'd guess with a tungsten (or even DU penetrator) core that such a bullet would take the WW1 and 2 concept of the man-portable AT rifle to new heights.

View attachment 29869
 
I think you'll find if you look into it Chogy, rifled 12 gauges are still classed as shotguns in the US and are subject to no special regulation. Companies like Remington and Winchester certainly sell sabot ammo for them as a matter of course.
 
Using the thread; though dormant; to post this news.

Indian-Origin Hiker Snapped Photos of Bear That Killed Him

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Patel had been hiking with four others when they met a man and a woman at the preserve's entrance who told them a bear was on the loose and advised the five friends to turn around, authorities said.

But the group went on, and Patel took photos from a distance of about 100 feet.
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They should have listened to the couple. Wrong decision.
 
My 13 year old son went with me on his first deer hunting trip this year. He was an observer only. We had a week on the tag but he could only stay a couple of days as the wife didn't want him to miss more than a day of school. We covered a lot of territory but a legal buck was not to be. He is hooked on hunting though so now the work begins so he can get a license and a tag for himself next year. I bought a Remington 700 youth model chambered in a 7mm-08. That should work for him and the wife. I took it out and ran the gun through its paces and now I am torn. After sighting it in I got a 5 shot half inch spread. Haven't even ran 20 rounds through it yet. I don't want to give this rifle up. Light, pleasant to shoot and very accurate. Giving the kid this rifle is like lending a 16 year old kid a Ferrari.
 
bonehead said:
My 13 year old son went with me on his first deer hunting trip this year. He was an observer only. We had a week on the tag but he could only stay a couple of days as the wife didn't want him to miss more than a day of school. We covered a lot of territory but a legal buck was not to be. He is hooked on hunting though so now the work begins so he can get a license and a tag for himself next year. I bought a Remington 700 youth model chambered in a 7mm-08. That should work for him and the wife. I took it out and ran the gun through its paces and now I am torn. After sighting it in I got a 5 shot half inch spread. Haven't even ran 20 rounds through it yet. I don't want to give this rifle up. Light, pleasant to shoot and very accurate. Giving the kid this rifle is like lending a 16 year old kid a Ferrari.
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Quit being a Grinch! Give the kid his rifle, and ask Santa for one for yourself.
 
Actually never heard of this round. It's a neck down .308. The specs read very impressive. Certainly a very good deer round. St Peter's slippers, I would be hesitant too.

But all told, I would be sticking to my .30-06. A bit overkill for a deer rifle but more than enough against the big 3 bears in the Americas.
 
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Officer of Engineers said:
Actually never heard of this round. It's a neck down .308. The specs read very impressive. Certainly a very good deer round. St Peter's slippers, I would be hesitant too.

But all told, I would be sticking to my .30-06. A bit overkill for a deer rifle but more than enough against the big 3 bears in the Americas.
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Off topic, but why did our infantry rifle cartridges get less powerful over time? First .30-06, then 7.62 NATO, then 5.56 NATO...
 
Placement. It was far more important to hit the target than to stop the target, ie, I rather you hit the target 5 times out of 10 with light punches than to miss all 10 itimes n trying to hit him once with a single heavy punch.
 
Officer of Engineers said:
Placement. It was far more important to hit the target than to stop the target, ie, I rather you hit the target 5 times out of 10 with light punches than to miss all 10 itimes n trying to hit him once with a single heavy punch.
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So the thinking is that as long as you hit them they will be out of action and a burden to the logistics train?
 
No, the thinking is that a hit, no matter how light, is better than a miss, no matter how heavy.

The 7.62x39 is a revolution in military firearms thinking.
 
Officer of Engineers said:
Actually never heard of this round. It's a neck down .308. The specs read very impressive. Certainly a very good deer round. St Peter's slippers, I would be hesitant too.

But all told, I would be sticking to my .30-06. A bit overkill for a deer rifle but more than enough against the big 3 bears in the Americas.
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I was going back and forth between the 7mm-08 and the .308 The 7mm-08 was at the right store at the right time. Its rare I run into a black bear anymore. Wolves and cougars are more common for me.
 
Even if you do run into a black bear, 5 rounds in a half inch grouping within 30 seconds would be enough ... unless you miss.

Do recall what I said about modern hunting spears ... with the guard.
 
tuna said:
Quit being a Grinch! Give the kid his rifle, and ask Santa for one for yourself.
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This was never going to be a Christmas gift. He is going to have to earn the right to use it as he would with any of my rifles. He will have to prove to me he is always going to make good decisions with it and he has to prove he understands the consequences of what a single careless act will bring. Right now we have about 9 months for him do do so and acquaint himself with the rifle before the next hunting season. When he goes out in the woods next fall I don't want him going out with a "new toy".
 
Then what the hell are you complaining about. 9 months? Get yourself a 7mm-Mag. You will never get a flatter rifle outside the .50cals and try to get that grin off your face for 9 months.
 
Officer of Engineers said:
Even if you do run into a black bear, 5 rounds in a half inch grouping within 30 seconds would be enough ... unless you miss.

Do recall what I said about modern hunting spears ... with the guard.
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I cant find it but I did say somewhere something to the effect that if I did lose to a bear the bear would die of lead poisoning…..eventually.
 
Officer of Engineers said:
Then what the hell are you complaining about. 9 months? Get yourself a 7mm-Mag. You will never get a flatter rifle outside the .50cals and try to get that grin off your face for 9 months.
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I already have a .300 mag to deal with the larger animals. It is my son that needs the 9 months to get acquainted. He has rarely shot anything more than a .22. I want him to be comfortable with whatever rifle he goes hunting with and that will take a lot of shooting. He also is getting trained in map and compass, field first aid, hunting ethics, tracking, etc, and he is going to be able to survive a night in the woods with only the bare essentials. Those 9 months are going to fly by. I simply have the belief that a persons first of everything is what gets the lions share of the abuse. First car, first gun, first knife, first wife, etc. I am just hesitant of all those mistakes being made on such a great shooter. Therefore I am considering swapping out my 31 year old and much heavier .270 for the newer and much lighter 7mm-08 for me and getting another lighter rifle, and hopefully cheaper, for him to use. I'd feel better if he dents and scratches a Ford rather than a Ferrari. Once he can prove he can drive the Ford then he can have the keys to the Ferrari. By then he would appreciate the ride too.
 
My son muscled through his state mandated hunter training yesterday. Now I have to give up the rifle. This spring and summer are going to be busy…shooting and cleaning the rifle.
 
Marlin Model 1895 in 45-70.. enough UMMPH to take down the biggest bear (and they have plenty of times) cost is reasonable, and it's much easier to get in Communist Canada than a semi-auto since it's a lever action.
 
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